photographer is quizzed by police

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Expand view Topic review: photographer is quizzed by police

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Big Brother » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:02 am

There shouldn't be any confusion though.

Unless the officer has had a specific complaint about behaviour, the photogapher is stood there with his bits out whilst taking photos of kids, or he's sat outside AWF Aldermaston with cameras and maps and muttering things about stealing trident missiles they should just let them get on with it and walk past them.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by xbob89 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:32 pm

Fair enough BB...well presented.

I do go with Si tho that there appears to be a bit of confusion over all of this and I bet its not just PCSOs who are a little confused...

Amen!

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Big Brother » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:01 am

Big-Si wrote: OK, you don;t need permission to take peoples pictures (it may be good manners) but you don;t need their permission.

What recent case law? Please tell me and provide a link if possible?

I'm not saying you do meed permission, unfortunately the PNLD doesnt have examples of case law for this, however the wording has been changed for section 5 to include behaviour and not just words that cause harassment/alarm/distress and in the guidance they've added examples such as knocking bins over and peering through windows......
I've merely pointed that in a hypothetical situation of an officer recieving a complaint about a particular person's behaviour there exists a possibility that by asking that person to stop the officers are acting within the law.

As I said though, it depends on there being a specific complaint. I'd also say that taking pictures of adults in the street probably wouldn't qualify unless you were being particularly obnoxious.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Big-Si » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:53 pm

xbob89 wrote:"So I'd argue if you're a photographer taking photos of other people's children without permission and you refuse to stop your actions could be considered to be causing harassment, alarm or distress to those people, based on the recent case law. At the very least I'd tell you to stop doing so.
If you informed me that your own kids are in the park then fair enough, you've got ample reason to be there and I'll stop bothering you."

Ah but now the story is changing....
We werent talking about a specific complaint about me taking pictures.
This is simply about me taking pictures in a park of children enjoying themselves and a PCSO asking me what Im doing and demanding my details.

Im committing no offence so am not obliged to even speak to you let alone furnish you with my details etc..
Most confused post ever :? Was that in response to my post? lol

OK, you don;t need permission to take peoples pictures (it may be good manners) but you don;t need their permission.

What recent case law? Please tell me and provide a link if possible?

You can tell me to stop and I'll politely tell you to go away, continue bothering me (bear in mind I'm acting lawfully) and I'll be asking you for your collar number and you'll be getting a formal complaint via the IPCC.
Seriously this could get you into a lot of trouble I'd be having a word with my divisional training officer if I were you and getting up to speed on what you can and can't do.
Last week I was out in Liverpool doing some street photography 2 bobbies had a look at me said hello and left me to it, they didn't ask what I was doing who I was. Was I Al Quaeda or a paedo, clearly they knew what the score was and that was that.

Now I'm not having a go at you but seriously guys from what I'm reading on here you need to get up to speed on the law relating to photographers and what you can and can't do. I'm one of the most pro Police people out there however I will not stand for over zealous, or poorly trained infringements on my human rights.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Big Brother » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:11 pm

xbob89 wrote: Ah but now the story is changing....
We werent talking about a specific complaint about me taking pictures.
This is simply about me taking pictures in a park of children enjoying themselves and a PCSO asking me what Im doing and demanding my details.

Im committing no offence so am not obliged to even speak to you let alone furnish you with my details etc..

This is where I think we got wires crossed. You must think I work in the Met and tend to stop photographers for the hell of it.....I was always talking about a "what if" scenario where you have recieved a specific complaint about someone causing a nuisance of themselves.

No, I've only ever stopped a photographer once, but for an operational reason and at the behest of a senior officer. I know, being a photographer myself that anyone has to have a damned good reason to need to question me and it has to be because someone has made a specific complaint, not just because I'm taking photos and they don't like it.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by xbob89 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:38 pm

"So I'd argue if you're a photographer taking photos of other people's children without permission and you refuse to stop your actions could be considered to be causing harassment, alarm or distress to those people, based on the recent case law. At the very least I'd tell you to stop doing so.
If you informed me that your own kids are in the park then fair enough, you've got ample reason to be there and I'll stop bothering you."

Ah but now the story is changing....
We werent talking about a specific complaint about me taking pictures.
This is simply about me taking pictures in a park of children enjoying themselves and a PCSO asking me what Im doing and demanding my details.

Im committing no offence so am not obliged to even speak to you let alone furnish you with my details etc..

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Big-Si » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:47 pm

ScaredMETpcso wrote:^^^ Police officers on my team and neighbouring team would arrest you and invesitgate the matter further I.e. What you say in an interview and most likely search your house for any incriminating evidence.... You or a MOP would probably throw a tantrum and get mad swearing etc etc so they would throw a section 5 in as well.. Yes it will 100% get NFA'd (unless you really are a perv and are known for it) but so what? The copper gets their body for the month.

I'm afraid that's how it works on my borough. Wether you think it's right or wrong.

What would you be arrested for? And this (as a photographer) is just downright damming evidence that some officers are clueless when it comes to photography. I as a human being on the provision have the right to take pictures in a public place and there is nothing the Police can do to stop me. You do not have the right to ask for my details, to see my equipment or images I have taken let alone delete them.

It's well worth having a read here http://photographernotaterrorist.org/

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Big Brother » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:07 am

It might be worth pointing out that recent case law for Section 5 has expanded it's scope above and beyond using just words or writing to cause harassment alarm and distress.

It now covers words, writing AND/OR behaviour that is likely to cause H.A.D or a disturbance, examples that have sucessfully been prosecuted by the police in court include tipping peoples' bins over and throwing eggs at houses during halloween.

In fact we've just done 3 youths for throwing a large number of eggs (40) at a person's house in the early hours of the morning. One of the youths who had simply been present with the gang, and hadn't thrown any eggs retained his right for legal representation. The solicitor agreed that his actions had been sufficient to cause alarm and distress and she advised him to accept the penalty notice as he wouldn't stand a chance in court, even though he was just part of the group she agreed that because he knew what was going on, and because he knew the group's actions would cause harassment, alarm or distress he was just as guilty.

So I'd argue if you're a photographer taking photos of other people's children without permission and you refuse to stop your actions could be considered to be causing harassment, alarm or distress to those people, based on the recent case law. At the very least I'd tell you to stop doing so.
If you informed me that your own kids are in the park then fair enough, you've got ample reason to be there and I'll stop bothering you.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by xbob89 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:48 am

Ah yes.... but you cant throw a public order offence at someone "if all else fails" that much hasnt changed.

If a cop tries to arrest me unlawfully then I have a lawful reason to resist and no offence is committed by doing so. Check it out!!
Sure, you might have seen PCs getting away with it, but its just that, getting away with it.
Some PCs get away with bullying people to get away with behaving badly. They (and some PCSOs no doubt) rely on Joe public being "blinded by science" and generally bamboozled by the law. Many MOP assume that police know the law where infact in many cases nothing could be further from the truth.
We often read of solicitors as being "Mr loop hole" but actually they have simply bothered to read the legislation.
Its too easy to frighten a MOP who has never been inside a police station to agree to things even if they are totally innocent.

Like I said in a previous post, I have nothing to prove so am not interested in a silly willy waving competition.
You know everything far better than me.....lol

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by ScaredMETpcso » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:30 am

Stalking you? You can't seem to stop mentioning my user name in every other post you make even when i haven't posted in them.

You are right, since your day, things have changed. Section 5 is always the way - seen it so many times :-)

remember I am a 'pcso' just relaying what I have seen coppers do that still have a job as a copper after doing such things I.e. Not ex bobbys lol.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by xbob89 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:15 am

Lol...are you cyber stalking me ScaredMET?

You really are talking out of your backside on this one.

What are the PCs going to arrest me for? Err, on the grounds that a PCSO has a ""hunch"" that I might be up to no good?
I might have been out for a little while but I dont recall reading that a person can be arrested unless there is reasonable belief that an offence is being committed?

Err, what happened to evidence?

So, imagine this....try hard now....

YOU are the arresting PC....what are you arresting me for? Err, coz Im taking pictures of children (including my own) in a public place on a warm sunny afternoon?
Hmm....what offence? err, you gonna make it up as you go along?
So, having nicked me you take me back to the custody suite and present me to "Sarg".... well? come on then...tell Sarg what offence has been committed...

Oh of course, you're relying on your Section 5 of the POA....Yeah....I called you a few choice words and put up a bit of a fight....BUT, if the arrest was unlawful in the first place then I have a right to resist it so err... Sarg says "ScaredMET, you are a t*t....oh, Mr Xbob our apologies...

"Yes it will 100% get NFA'd (unless you really are a perv and are known for it) but so what? The copper gets their body for the month."

And Im afraid YOU are going to lose your job and possibly be on the other side of a common assault charge at the very least......

Fool.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by ScaredMETpcso » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:48 am

^^^ Police officers on my team and neighbouring team would arrest you and invesitgate the matter further I.e. What you say in an interview and most likely search your house for any incriminating evidence.... You or a MOP would probably throw a tantrum and get mad swearing etc etc so they would throw a section 5 in as well.. Yes it will 100% get NFA'd (unless you really are a perv and are known for it) but so what? The copper gets their body for the month.

I'm afraid that's how it works on my borough. Wether you think it's right or wrong.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by xbob89 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:07 am

Lol....this is where the powers of the PCSO *and PC) are thankfully a bit thin...

Im taking innocent pictures of kids (including my own) in a playground on a Summers day...no offence committed as far as Im concerned.

Well meaning PCSO comes along and asks me what Im doing so I tell him "Im taking pictures of children enjoying themselves in the park officer"...

Well meaning PCSO "assumes" Im a perv so demands my name, address, inside leg measurements....
I politely decline the request as Ive already explained my actions.

So, what next? Well meaning PCSO going to call the police? Why? What are they going to do that you havent already done?
Im NOT, repeat NOT breaking the law.

Ok, so well meaning PCSO advises me that I will have to answer to the police and requests I remain with him....err, I politely decline as I have to attend evensong....I hop into my car with my camera and kids and drive away...
Car index number taken and I get a visit from the police? Err, Im not answering anymore questions constable.....

Like I said, what are you going to do about it?

Err....I suggest note in a note book, a moment of private fury but all in all nothing else.....lol

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by Islandbeat » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:00 pm

Might not answer to me but if your taking photos of kids in a park causing distress where I work you'll be answering to somebody.

Re: photographer is quizzed by police

by xbob89 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:34 am

"If you're in a park taking photos of kids and causing harassment, alarm or distress to members of public then we can at least get your details off you"

Like I said....ask away....but I aint gonna tell ya!

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