2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

PCSO stuff ONLY: Burning issues, high profile questions or cases that have been highlighted in national or local news, let's talk about them IN HERE! A link to the item would be great where possible.

Moderator: national-PCSOs

User avatar
falkor
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:39 am
Alignment: 'Xevious'
Location: Surrey
Contact:

2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by falkor » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:44 pm

this has been validated by mj12cz, Hysteria, Headset 57, Sgt87, Arthur ASCII and of course Nogsy himself

THANK YOU to all above for checking all 20

NOW it's over to YOU!! http://policecommunitysupportofficer.co ... gsy_20.htm :slead: see how you do!

BTW "your CBM colleague" means your local Beat PC :slwoot:

User avatar
Bert Moffat
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:24 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:55 pm

100% - but not sure about how S17 powers let you break in to the caravan though.

Felony
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Kraplakistan, USSR

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Felony » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:07 pm

19/20 but only because Q.5 seems wrong to me... the answer I selected is what my force uses.

Also, Q.16 only applies to those of you who are actually allowed to detain people - some forces don't have that power!

Bert Moffat wrote:100% - but not sure about how S17 powers let you break in to the caravan though.
Dogs are "property" therefore you can reasonably suspect the owner doesn't want their dog to be "criminally damaged" (if that's even a phrase).

It's most likely that the owner is the one who locked the dog in there, but how are you to know that? :wink:
FELONY :: NO LONGER PART OF THE OF THE PCSO WORLD
[ATTENTION - DRY SARCASM MAY BE EXPERIENCED]
Image

User avatar
Bert Moffat
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:24 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:21 pm

But it wouldn't be criminal damage, it would be neglect would it not?

Felony
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Kraplakistan, USSR

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Felony » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:44 pm

Bert Moffat wrote:But it wouldn't be criminal damage, it would be neglect would it not?
If you allow the dog to die, you could technically say it's criminal damage as the dog would be "permanently damaged." Plants are living things, but if you kill them it's criminal damage... same with a dog.

No different to a dog being left in a hot car - the window is going in!

Yes, you are right to say it's neglect, but for the purpose of saving the little fellas life, you CAN justify using this piece of legislation. Ways and means act - the law is open to interpretation :wink:
FELONY :: NO LONGER PART OF THE OF THE PCSO WORLD
[ATTENTION - DRY SARCASM MAY BE EXPERIENCED]
Image

User avatar
Bert Moffat
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:24 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:48 pm

Why use "ways and means"?

Why not do the job properly and use the relevant legislation?

Surely you should be taking your powers from the Animal Welfare Act?

Felony
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Kraplakistan, USSR

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Felony » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:08 pm

I'm not using ways and means, I'm using S.17 - the "ways and means" is just the additional "interpretation of the law."

Magistrate: "Officer, why did you break into the caravan?"

Officer: "Well your worship, I had been informed that a dog had been left inside for 3 days. I entered the caravan by force under Section 17 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, in order to prevent serious damage to property. In this case the 'property' being the dog (as it is defined in law) and the 'serious damage' referring to it dying."

Magistrate: "But officer, can you honestly define a dog dying as 'serious damage?'"

Officer: "Yes your worship. If you smash up a car, it is resonable to say it can be repaired. However, if a dog dies, there is no chance of bringing it back to its former state... i.e. bring it back to life"


If a PCSO wants to sit back with their thumb up their arse, then the next day have the Daily Hate Mail report "PCSO allows starving dog to die even though he had the power of entry" that's up to them. I've got extremely limited powers, but the ones I've got will be used where necessary.
FELONY :: NO LONGER PART OF THE OF THE PCSO WORLD
[ATTENTION - DRY SARCASM MAY BE EXPERIENCED]
Image

User avatar
Bert Moffat
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:24 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:48 pm

And again, why not just use the relevant legislstion?

No-one is suggesting that you should "sit back with your thumb up your arse" until you did - just do the job properly and know your powers, and you won't have to develop additional interpretions of the law to justify anything

Have you actully used this or are you just winging it? Because I cannot follow the logic of "preventing criminal damage" when you are talking about the welfare of a dog, the dog is an animal so use the Animal Welfare Act and you wont have to make it up as you go along.

Felony
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Kraplakistan, USSR

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Felony » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:22 am

Bert Moffat wrote:And again, why not just use the relevant legislstion?

No-one is suggesting that you should "sit back with your thumb up your arse" until you did - just do the job properly and know your powers, and you won't have to develop additional interpretions of the law to justify anything

Have you actully used this or are you just winging it? Because I cannot follow the logic of "preventing criminal damage" when you are talking about the welfare of a dog, the dog is an animal so use the Animal Welfare Act and you wont have to make it up as you go along.
Are you being slow or what... I'm not "making it up as I go along," it's written in law under Section 17 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. "Interpretation of the law" is a legitimate thing - police, crims, magistrates and judges do it all the time - it's called "Test Case."

A dog, by definition of law, is PROPERTY. And since when did PCSOs start getting powers under the Animal Welfare Act?! The animals welfare is the secondary issue and is what would be looked into (i.e. if you were to investigate & prosecute) - but we're not talking about that, we're talking about the required power of entry.

Ahhh I can't be bothered to argue the toss - I know what I'm talking about and the fact that it's one of the answers on the quiz just corroborates what I've been saying.
Last edited by Felony on Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
FELONY :: NO LONGER PART OF THE OF THE PCSO WORLD
[ATTENTION - DRY SARCASM MAY BE EXPERIENCED]
Image

User avatar
Bert Moffat
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:24 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Bert Moffat » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:24 am

Anyone else got a view on this one?

Granty
Executive Officer
Executive Officer
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:10 pm

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Granty » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:21 am

Agreed with felony.


Covered this last week on my training and the trainer used pretty much the same examples given there.

User avatar
falkor
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:39 am
Alignment: 'Xevious'
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by falkor » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:35 am

totally agree with Felony

he is on the money all the way through

User avatar
PI & GI
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: milton keynes (in the cuds)

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by PI & GI » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:46 am

s17 pace! all the way
WHO LOVES YA BABY! (KOJAK)

User avatar
Policeymans
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:02 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by Policeymans » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:19 pm

Who wrote that stupid question about the Nazi's and the Jews?
BRING BACK BRIAN

User avatar
tim419
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:42 am

Re: 2010 Nogsy's BIG 20 for PCSOs

Post by tim419 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:51 pm

My first opinion was that S17 PACE does not apply in scenario given. However on closer reading of that section, it clearly states ""saving animals could be preventing serious damage to property" and a "PCSO has same powers as a PC" here.

Not sure about arrest for breach of peace though. General power of arrest for citizens only extends to indictable offences in limited circumstances, which doesn't cover this.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic