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Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 am
by Gforceuk
London isnt the centre of the universe and boris has no influence beyond its borders... whereas cameron and many others do

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:44 pm
by tommy
PCSOTristan wrote:
JCH wrote:There is your answer then... budget cuts for Police Forces means no spending on PCSO's... Face facts our jobs are under threat if the Tories get in.
Give it up for Mr Depression! We are not going anywhere under any government. The local police authority say how the budget is spent the chief goes to them, community policing is important!
Whilst I hate to say it, as a PCSO who believes we do have a significant role to play within the Police family ... at the end of the day, forces are having to make millions of pounds worth of cut backs. The conservatives who will no doubt be in next year, aren't really bothered about PCSO's, and will leave it up to the Chief Constables. However.... with all the cut backs anyway, and lack of resources ALL the times, are the Chiefs going to choose 5 PCSO's who can't take on crime reports or deal with confrontation, or 3 PC's who can do everything?

I hate to say it, but i'm not sure PCSO's will be around forever - either via redundancy, or natural wastage (which obviously is a better option).

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:23 pm
by Big Brother
Gforceuk wrote:whereas cameron and many others do


No he doesn't. Until he's prime minister all he can do is bitch and moan. And even then nobody cares.

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:20 pm
by PCSOTristan
tommy wrote:
PCSOTristan wrote:
JCH wrote:There is your answer then... budget cuts for Police Forces means no spending on PCSO's... Face facts our jobs are under threat if the Tories get in.
Give it up for Mr Depression! We are not going anywhere under any government. The local police authority say how the budget is spent the chief goes to them, community policing is important!
Whilst I hate to say it, as a PCSO who believes we do have a significant role to play within the Police family ... at the end of the day, forces are having to make millions of pounds worth of cut backs. The conservatives who will no doubt be in next year, aren't really bothered about PCSO's, and will leave it up to the Chief Constables. However.... with all the cut backs anyway, and lack of resources ALL the times, are the Chiefs going to choose 5 PCSO's who can't take on crime reports or deal with confrontation, or 3 PC's who can do everything?

I hate to say it, but i'm not sure PCSO's will be around forever - either via redundancy, or natural wastage (which obviously is a better option).
Stop looking short term and think long term, those 3 PC's may take crime reports, deal with confrontation, but also cost huge amounts to train, have a wage structure which means for up to 10 years there wages go up, pay rises or not, work for 25 years then can retire, have huge pension pots, spend only 2 years of service locked into a role, transfer to new departments/new forces, have a horrfic staff turn over within the first 5 years of service, spend as little as 13% of the time patrolling.

We will not be leaving just yet, I pretty sure even now the CC does not have to write to Alan Johnson to ask for permission to sack the PCSO's. Stop flapping, there is so much money wasted in the police, budgets could be cut by half and we would still be okay. Cars, uniforms, Pointless overtime (we know the sort), service agreements, out sourced contracts, admins, force mergers, support staff postings, police officer postings, IT departments, media departments, DIU's, SOCO, HQ departments, Stores, specialist units, Air Support, major investigation units. There is so much that can be cut by forces working closer together, sharing resources, just as Kent, Essex, lesser extent suffolk do.

Here in Essex we share a unit for the dartford river crossing, we are moving forward to have 1 media, DIU, IT, Helicopter (rotaed between Kent, Essex, Suffolk) and much more which we share, to much is spent by to many for such a few resources and keeping people in jobs for the sake of jobs.

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:25 pm
by typecastboy
Big Brother wrote:
typecastboy wrote:But I already have those two powers I think, at least the Fireworks one anyway.


Nobody has, they're not law yet. The only power you've got to seize fireworks or spray cans is under the prevention of stupidity act of 2001.
I was given an A4 sheet just before Bonfire Night that listed the power to seize fireworks, can't remember what it was all about now, but that power is definately there. I've still got it in my locker, so I'll have another look.

As for grafitti, I would take the implement of vandalism, i.e. a pen from someone grafitting, power or not!

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:58 am
by Big Brother
typecastboy wrote:
Big Brother wrote:
typecastboy wrote:But I already have those two powers I think, at least the Fireworks one anyway.


Nobody has, they're not law yet. The only power you've got to seize fireworks or spray cans is under the prevention of stupidity act of 2001.
I was given an A4 sheet just before Bonfire Night that listed the power to seize fireworks, can't remember what it was all about now, but that power is definately there. I've still got it in my locker, so I'll have another look.

As for grafitti, I would take the implement of vandalism, i.e. a pen from someone grafitting, power or not!


AFAIK it's an offence for an under 18 to be in posession of a firework, and there is a power for a PC to confiscate it. I personally can't see anything wrong with a PCSO confiscating them, on the basis that you're preventing a crime from taking place. I'm sure others will disagree though :slsm: .

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:05 pm
by Gforceuk
Big Brother wrote:
AFAIK it's an offence for an under 18 to be in posession of a firework, and there is a power for a PC to confiscate it. I personally can't see anything wrong with a PCSO confiscating them, on the basis that you're preventing a crime from taking place. I'm sure others will disagree though :slsm: .

If you havent got the power then youre committing theft

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:21 pm
by JEA
Gforceuk wrote:
Big Brother wrote:
AFAIK it's an offence for an under 18 to be in posession of a firework, and there is a power for a PC to confiscate it. I personally can't see anything wrong with a PCSO confiscating them, on the basis that you're preventing a crime from taking place. I'm sure others will disagree though :slsm: .

If you havent got the power then youre committing theft
I'm sure we can. I'll look up the legislation. But I seem to remember we can seize cat 3 (adult fireworks) off under 18's. And cat 4 (display fireworks) off anyone in a public place, without a licence. I presume the new legislation will mean we could seize cat 3 off over 18's.

We can also be designated with the power to PND for throwing fireworks in a public place, so maybe it's so we can seize any other fireworks off over 18's to prevent the embarrassing situation of ticketing somebody then letting them go with fireworks still in their possession.

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:31 pm
by Big Brother
Gforceuk wrote:
If you havent got the power then youre committing theft


Even if the intention to permanantly deprive isn't there, ie parents collect it a day later.....

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:57 pm
by Gforceuk
regardless , you're on sticky ground... You cant just go around taking things of people and just because your in a uniform say ' you can pick it up later' .

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:00 pm
by Big Brother
Gforceuk wrote:regardless , you're on sticky ground... You cant just go around taking things of people and just because your in a uniform say ' you can pick it up later' .


I'm not suggesting that, however there are times when it might be appropriate, ie you find a youth about to spray paint a wall. Do you just tell them not to do it, or do you take the can off them and take it to the parents e.t.c.
I think if you're preventing a crime from taking place and preventing yet another person getting sucked into the CJS then perhaps the ends justify the means.

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:11 pm
by Gforceuk
Big Brother wrote:
Gforceuk wrote:regardless , you're on sticky ground... You cant just go around taking things of people and just because your in a uniform say ' you can pick it up later' .


I'm not suggesting that, however there are times when it might be appropriate, ie you find a youth about to spray paint a wall. Do you just tell them not to do it, or do you take the can off them and take it to the parents e.t.c.
I think if you're preventing a crime from taking place and preventing yet another person getting sucked into the CJS then perhaps the ends justify the means.

If he's about to spray paint a wall then he would be nicked the male is in possession of articles with intent to cause damage and its more than just prepatory if holding it upto the wall. Subsequently carry out sec 18 to find any more evidence re graffiti and tags.

He's therefore committing an offence.

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:00 pm
by baronsmirnoff
Whilst I hate to say it, as a PCSO who believes we do have a significant role to play within the Police family ... at the end of the day, forces are having to make millions of pounds worth of cut backs. The conservatives who will no doubt be in next year, aren't really bothered about PCSO's, and will leave it up to the Chief Constables. However.... with all the cut backs anyway, and lack of resources ALL the times, are the Chiefs going to choose 5 PCSO's who can't take on crime reports or deal with confrontation, or 3 PC's who can do everything?
Do we get 5 PCSOs for 3 PC? Well yes if you base it on wages, PCSOTRISTAN gave one argument against this but if you expand on his reply and look at it another way.

In the Met and probably in most forces
1/ only about 1 in 3 PCs are on the street
2/ PCSO spends 80% of time on the street PC 13% 1 PCSO = 6 PCs
3/ Prevention is better than the cure Hi-Vis patrols cut/prevent crime
4/ PCSO wages max. £25,000 PC £40,000

6 PCs on street, 12 in office based roles cost £720,000 PCSO £25,000 = 29 PCSO/PC, 29 uniforms on the street cut/prevent crime less need for crime reports/arrest/some one to do everything

If you are a CC now which will you employ

A balance of both

Re: Policing White Paper

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:33 pm
by PI & GI
Another example of 'technicality versus practicality'.


I think who ever thought of the so called power to'seize graffiti cans' needs a good wake up call! what next 'power to walk in a straight line' or 'power to breathe in an out' lol
I just think these pen pushers have not got a clue when it comes to pcsos, I think these new 'powers' just degrade our role and make us look silly, - so we are tecnically committing theft if we take the graffiti cans off some little oik then, well lets just turn a blind eye then, somehow I dont think the PC's or NSO'S on our NHPT give a monkeys if we can seize graffiti cans. lol