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Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:56 am
by Dirrty
wow! is Humberside the only force with set targets of 1 PND and 2 FPN's a month? if we don't meet out targets and don't have a reasonable excuse we have a negative PDR entry which will reflect on out ability to get another job within the civilian side of the force or even if we apply to join the reg's, i'm fecked as i haven't met the target for months now as i don't believe in issuing the old fella an FPN for cycling on the footpath at a pace slower then foot speed and you can never grab those tools going stupid fast for fear of causing them injury. Don't mind doing the section 5 or crim dam PND's though but they're as rare as rocking horse poo.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:32 am
by steve999
Dirrty wrote:wow! is Humberside the only force with set targets of 1 PND and 2 FPN's a month? if we don't meet out targets and don't have a reasonable excuse we have a negative PDR entry which will reflect on out ability to get another job within the civilian side of the force or even if we apply to join the reg's, i'm fecked as i haven't met the target for months now as i don't believe in issuing the old fella an FPN for cycling on the footpath at a pace slower then foot speed and you can never grab those tools going stupid fast for fear of causing them injury. Don't mind doing the section 5 or crim dam PND's though but they're as rare as rocking horse poo.
:slwo: All forces should have targets for all officers, that way officers will issue them. Are you telling me that you can walk for 6hrs and not give someone a ticket. PCSOs are part of the police family so they should enforce the law.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:00 pm
by tnpmonkey
PCSOs in Kent cant issue PNDs etc and its not our job to issue for cycling on a foot path and dog fouling, a verbal warning is fine otherwise the whole of the public would hate us.

They would prefer we lower crime and catch criminals than target hit! Issuing a FPN for dog fouling once a month does absolutely nothing

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:03 pm
by steve999
tnpmonkey wrote:PCSOs in Kent cant issue PNDs etc and its not our job to issue for cycling on a foot path and dog fouling, a verbal warning is fine otherwise the whole of the public would hate us.

They would prefer we lower crime and catch criminals than target hit! Issuing a FPN for dog fouling once a month does absolutely nothing
in Kent a PCSO can only issue one for
Dog fouling
Cycling on a pavement
:slwo:
:slwo: So management gave PCSOs the powers to do the above but you don't fancy issuing tickets for it, so you don't bother doing it. Who's job is it to stop people cycling on the pavement...PC's.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:32 pm
by stu
CIDB wrote:I work on a retail crime unit, Have done since 2003. and I have given out a number of tickets. Crime Dam and section five POA. also, Drinking in a designated public area, Dropping litter, Cycling on a footpath, ect.

And I think as we are in the POLICE it is our job to enforce law when required.

I work alongside cidb and yes we can issue tickets for quite alot and do so when needed.
Can save waisting a pc's time and it is what we are there for if all else fails.
Ofcourse being out there hi vis stops alot before it starts.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:58 am
by the dark lord
We are told that it is our role to educate people, rather than issue PND/FPN, however despite it being the same force but a different division 10 miles across town, the PCSOs there are expected to issues x many tickets a month as part of the funding arrangement from the council.

Don't get me wrong i am of the opinion that i as a PCSO should be issuing tickets but i feel that if i did i would be frowned upon, by supervision and by other officers PCs and PCSOs who dont. AFAIK our NPT officers (PCs) are not targeted either.

Our supervision do not feel that it is compatible with our non-confrontational role, which is understandable, but bollocks.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:41 pm
by Dirrty
steve999 wrote:
Dirrty wrote:wow! is Humberside the only force with set targets of 1 PND and 2 FPN's a month? if we don't meet out targets and don't have a reasonable excuse we have a negative PDR entry which will reflect on out ability to get another job within the civilian side of the force or even if we apply to join the reg's, i'm fecked as i haven't met the target for months now as i don't believe in issuing the old fella an FPN for cycling on the footpath at a pace slower then foot speed and you can never grab those tools going stupid fast for fear of causing them injury. Don't mind doing the section 5 or crim dam PND's though but they're as rare as rocking horse poo.
:slwo: All forces should have targets for all officers, that way officers will issue them. Are you telling me that you can walk for 6hrs and not give someone a ticket. PCSOs are part of the police family so they should enforce the law.
take it your community/neighbourhood love you. PCSO's are not enforcement officers, PSCO's help with community/police cohesion how can the issuing of FPN's to people trundling along on their shopper help community/police relations? here you go grandad here's your £30 fine for cycling on the footpath, grandad replies "what about him" as some one who totally does deserve to be penalised cycles past at approximately 20mph, even the Home Office recognises that cycle FPN's should only be issued as a last resort and to people who actually cycle dangerously on the footpath that is why we are given the power of discretion we are not duty bound to take any action as we not sworn in warranted officers. i'm not adversed to issuing deserving FPN's and now that we have finally had out combined tickets printed we can start issuing tickets for number plates again. to answer your question no i can't walk round for 6 hours a day as i have other task's to complete if a PSCO does nothing but walk round for 6 hours then his/her neighbourhood clearly is not in need of a police presence and there force budget should cut PCSO's in that area or combine them with another area.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:25 pm
by steve999
:slwo: tpmonkey loves enforcing the law and catching criminals, should he not be doing that!!

If you believe you should not be enforcing the law then your role could be carried out by the Street Wardens at a fraction of the cost.
You are not duty bound to take any action as you are not sworn in warranted officers
.
I think you are duty bound to sort the problem if a member of the public complains.
if a PSCO does nothing but walk round for 6 hours then his/her neighbourhood clearly is not in need of a police presence and there force budget should cut PCSO's in that area or combine them with another area.
[/quote]
That is what the PCSO job description says; walk & talk, be seen on foot or bike, be out in the community 80% of the time meeting the public etc..............The role is to Prevent Crime...........walk the same streets over & over again so there is always a presence in the area. That is what the PCSO role is all about. If you are not out on the streets being seen what is the point of the role.

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:37 pm
by tnpmonkey
issuing FPNs for cycling on a footpath and dog fouling can be done by PCSOs, Constables, council enforcement officers to name a few.

Why do you believe PCSOs should be doing it and not the rest? Surely you "enforce the law" so you issue for dog fouling and cycling on a pavement?

You should Police your ward as it see's fit, no one wants PC's or PCSOs issuing tickets for the above when they could be doing better, more important things.

Education is enough for the above, unless the person is a trouble maker who you keep catching and he/she needs one.

I dont know 1 PC who has issued for the above and only 1 PCSO in 4 years.

We are not here to ticket boxes, although some of you might like that.

I spend my time doing what I am asked to do, which is not to issue for the above, its to try and fit enough time in the shift to do the X amount of crime reports, calls, CADs, victim visits, talks, public meetings etc etc etc the list goes on.

Dont get me wrong, if I could ticket for more offences that are needed on my ward like obstructions, I would be a hero to the residents, but I cant and that does not mean I will power trip and issue for the minor offences above.

There is a difference between enforcing the law (1000's of them) and dealing with crime. Obviously the law needs enforcing, but you have to use common sense at the end of the day.

Is your time best spend watching dog walkers in case their dog does a poo or out targeting criminals and helping victims of crime?

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:13 pm
by steve999
Only PC & PCSOs can issue tickets for cycling. Neither can do for dog fouling. PCs are handing out tickets as they are given targets each month but PCSOs are not, why not!!

That is what neighbourhood policing is all about.....PACT meetings, public decide the priorities for their area.

Who says PCSOs are not here to tick boxes, you or SMT?

That is the big debate, should PCSOs do crime reports or not. PCSOs in our area are not allowed to do them as CC says that is a PCs job, if you want to do a PCs job then join up as a PC.

You could ticket for parking in a dangerous position for obstructions on your ward and see what happens.

Agree, your job is to help victims of crime but PCSOs No 1 job is to Prevent Crime. If that is successful then no need to do the other...

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:35 pm
by tnpmonkey
we can issue for dog fouling, not that we ever would, its one of the three things PCSOs can ticket for in Kent.... Same goes for the PCs

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:18 pm
by steve999
:slwo: I wish all forces could issue tickets for dog fouling & littering. That is my big bugbear when you see sugar on the streets and litter everwhere. I bet the public would love it if we issued tickets..................

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:18 am
by Arthur ASCII
Even our Environmental Wardens are unable to issue tickets for dog fouling here in Northampton!

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:05 am
by falkor
there is an entire thread on PCSOs issuing tickets for dog fouling here :slcool:
AussiePCSO wrote:Hi all

I am currently in training, and start in August :slwoot: cant wait!

Anyway, we learnt about PND's last week, and I would like to ask the following questions.

Do you issue PND/FPN's, if so how often?
If you dont issue them often, why?
What is your stations unwritten policy on handing them out? Do you follow this?
Who do you give them to, specific incidents, or anytime you see any kind of incident?

Thanks peeps :slcool:
if you are a PCSO who hasn't issued a FPN all year then why not? tnpmonkey says he has far too much to do to have time, is that where you stand too? PCSOs have way too much on their plate to issue FPNs?

Re: PND's, Lots of Questions, Honest Answers Please!

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:24 am
by typecastboy
tnpmonkey wrote:PCSOs in Kent cant issue PNDs etc and its not our job to issue for cycling on a foot path and dog fouling, a verbal warning is fine otherwise the whole of the public would hate us.

They would prefer we lower crime and catch criminals than target hit! Issuing a FPN for dog fouling once a month does absolutely nothing
Actually, the whole of the public won't hate us. We are for ever getting people moaning about people cycling on the pavement and on the pedestrianised high street. I and colleagues have even told a Sergeant from our nick to get off his bike several times, and he should know better. I've never given an FPN out, but do keep a couple on me at all times. I may start issuing them though, because some people are really taking the Pee. If I'm standing in the High Street and I don;'t happen to see someone cycling past until it's too late, I often hear comments from the public criticising me for not telling him or her to get off.