Unison Pay Rise Consultation

PCSO stuff ONLY: Burning issues, high profile questions or cases that have been highlighted in national or local news, let's talk about them IN HERE! A link to the item would be great where possible.

Moderator: national-PCSOs

moi1985
Registered Member
Registered Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:18 am

Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196176Post moi1985
Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:47 pm

Unison are currently asking individual boards to give responses on their proposal to ask for a 3% pay rise for Police Staff this coming financial year.

Repsonses are only allowed at Branch level, not from individual union members, so make sure you give your views to your branch officer, if you haven't already been consulted.

This is the proposal document from the unison website: http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/B6220.pdf

Given that my force is taking on new PC's in June on the new £19K, and PC's are being offered up to 1% pay rise, are we pushing our luck askingfor 3% or do we deserve it?

User avatar
Catweazle
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Londinium SPQR

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196183Post Catweazle
Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:23 pm

I think we would be foolish to even think about asking for a pay rise in the current climate. Those of us that still have our jobs should be thankful for that- and we should set an example by doing our jobs to the best of our ability.

Let's not be tempted by reckless calls for wage rises from militant union activists whose ultimate aim is disorder and chaos (namely a civil war out of which, they believe, a socialist utopia would emerge).

Personally, I would settle for a wage freeze for the next five years, if such a proposal exists. We all need to make cutbacks when the going gets tough. Such a wage freeze would be my answer to a wage cut (in real terms) without a reduction in wages (an illusion perhaps, but better to have an illusion than a delusion).
I may not agree with what you have to say- but I'll defend to the death (well, almost) your right to say it.

May the Reasonable Force be with you !

User avatar
Arthur ASCII
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:24 am
Location: Northampton

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196186Post Arthur ASCII
Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:08 pm

Unison will be negotiating with employers according to the wishes of their hard working members who have suffered a pay freeze and sometimes cuts in pay due to the reduction in shift allowances (in my Force PCSOs have lost over £80 per month due to "shift adjustments"). Even a 3% pay rise will not bring us back to where we were post-recession.

Meanwhile, electricity, gas and petrol prices have risen far beyond the rate of inflation leaving many of our PCSO colleagues struggling to survive. Behaving like a serf will not pay the bills.

This government seems to believe that if you pay the rich MORE they work harder, and if you pay the poor LESS they work harder.

I'll be fighting for a 3% rise. MPs recommended themselves a 32% pay rise last January, so I don't reckon we're being unreasonable.

Catweazle does not need to accept any pay rise that he might benifit from on the back of the hard work of Union reps if he's such a man of principle - I expect he will though :slzip:
UNISON - Fighting your corner. Join us HERE
ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
xbob89
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196197Post xbob89
Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:08 pm

Quite agree Arthur....

But you know that in reality its unlikely that 3% is going to be agreed when all other public sector workers are having to accept 1%..

But hey, no harm in trying.....

User avatar
Catweazle
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Londinium SPQR

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196201Post Catweazle
Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:22 pm

A 3% rise would be nice, of course. But why not a 10% rise, or 20%? Hey, let's go for 50%. Just print more money as Mugabe's government did in Zimbabwe- and we'll all be trillionaires within a few years!

I really think it is nothing short of recklessness to even talk of rises at this time. Yes, if I got a rise of 3%, I'd take it- just as I would a pay cut. If they were to declare that PCSOs who will work for a 10% cut can keep their jobs and those who won't take a cut will be made redundant, I'll take the cut any day.

As for behaving like a serf, that's a bit of an outdated expression- serfs went out during the time of Elizabeth the First, I believe. And slavery (in the UK) was abolished (officially) in 1808 (or 1807, can't recall exactly- but around that time).

As far as working harder is concerned, yes we do have to work harder. We have fewer PCSOs and we have more unecessary tasks and projects. Consequentially, our workload has increased considerably over the last year. I don't like it, but it's a sign of the times- and I'm glad to have this job (with the current conditions) when so many are forced out of a job partly due to higher wage demands.

Soon we'll have unknown waves of additional economic migrants from Bulgaria and Romania- along with numerous others in this climate of continuous mass immigration. That will drive wages down even further- and if we're not careful, we'll all be out of a job- especially if we demand more money. So, to be brutally honest, more cuts will be on the way if we are to compete with workers who will work for less. What employer will pay a wage of £100 a day for a labourer when inlimited waves of migrants will work for £50 a day?

When the going gets good, the national debt is in decline, and mass immigration is halted, it would be time to look at wage rises again. But certainly not now or for the foreseeable future with abovementioned current trends.
I may not agree with what you have to say- but I'll defend to the death (well, almost) your right to say it.

May the Reasonable Force be with you !

User avatar
Arthur ASCII
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:24 am
Location: Northampton

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196206Post Arthur ASCII
Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:25 pm

Did you swallow a Daily Mail Catweazle :slww:

Sing along...

It suits today the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place
To cringe before the rich man's frown,
And haul the sacred emblem down.

So raise the scarlet standard high,
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
UNISON - Fighting your corner. Join us HERE
ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Arthur ASCII
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:24 am
Location: Northampton

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196207Post Arthur ASCII
Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:28 pm

xbob89 wrote:Quite agree Arthur....

But you know that in reality its unlikely that 3% is going to be agreed when all other public sector workers are having to accept 1%..

But hey, no harm in trying.....
Come on nox Xbob, surely you've heard of negotiation. It's a process of give and take.
UNISON - Fighting your corner. Join us HERE
ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
xbob89
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196209Post xbob89
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:43 pm

Arthur ASCII wrote:
xbob89 wrote:Quite agree Arthur....

But you know that in reality its unlikely that 3% is going to be agreed when all other public sector workers are having to accept 1%..

But hey, no harm in trying.....
Come on nox Xbob, surely you've heard of negotiation. It's a process of give and take.
Yup I have....but I work for the NHS and Im afraid negotiations settled at 1%

User avatar
Arthur ASCII
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:24 am
Location: Northampton

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196213Post Arthur ASCII
Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:52 am

xbob89 wrote:Yup I have....but I work for the NHS and Im afraid negotiations settled at 1%
But the point is - they started at 3%. If they'd started at 1% you'd have got bugger all.
UNISON - Fighting your corner. Join us HERE
ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Big Brother
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:36 pm
Examiner: XIII
Location: Somewhere

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196215Post Big Brother
Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:17 am

If you don't ask, you don't get.

Why should we be happy to just sit back and take what's coming to us from the government? Why the f**k should I be grateful for my job? I work damn hard, only to see thousands of people out of work who are financially better off than me anyway.
Big brother is watching you.

User avatar
Minx
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:49 pm
Location: Scone Country

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196264Post Minx
Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:27 pm

Catweazle wrote:I think we would be foolish to even think about asking for a pay rise in the current climate. Those of us that still have our jobs should be thankful for that- and we should set an example by doing our jobs to the best of our ability.

Let's not be tempted by reckless calls for wage rises from militant union activists whose ultimate aim is disorder and chaos (namely a civil war out of which, they believe, a socialist utopia would emerge).

Personally, I would settle for a wage freeze for the next five years, if such a proposal exists. We all need to make cutbacks when the going gets tough. Such a wage freeze would be my answer to a wage cut (in real terms) without a reduction in wages (an illusion perhaps, but better to have an illusion than a delusion).
Absolutely my thoughts too.
Minx

GlynB
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:24 am
Location: South Yorshire Police

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196276Post GlynB
Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:11 pm

The concept of the contract of employment is that the employer and employee are equal partners and as such either side can seek to change the arrangements by a process of negotiation.

Cleary the real power lies with the employer who holds the purse strings. When workers are in short supply the employees may find their bargaining position is improved. When workers are plentiful or not needed then the employer regains even greater control.

Trade unions or staff associations undertake negotiations on behalf of employees in large organisations where it is impractical for individual negotiation. If one works for a small organisation it is common practice to negotiate one’s own terms.

Within the majority of the police service in England and Wales the outline of terms and conditions that form the contract of employment, have been negotiated over many years at Police Staff Council. Our terms are not the result of beneficent employers unilaterally deciding we should be so well treated but rather as a result of negotiation seeking to reach acceptable positions for both sides.

PSC has set the pay awards for many years and I would argue has always been realistic. It is normal practice for the trade union side to open with proposals that take into account some or all the factors set out in the PSC Handbook which sets the parameters for pay negotiations.

1.2.1 pay movements elsewhere in the public sector
1.2.2 pay movements elsewhere in the economy
1.2.3 movements in the retail price index
1.2.4 recruitment and retention factors
1.2.5 police service funding

Clearly, the Employers’ side bases their responses on the same factors.

Far from being militant the trade unions making up PSC (UNISON 5 seats, GMB 1 seat, Unite 1 seat) have demonstrated considerable moderation over the years. There has been no national industrial action over any police specific dispute. (The only industrial action has been about pensions which is not in the remit of PSC). UNISON, and I assume Unite and GMB, within the police service acts on the desire and instruction of the majority of Members expressed through their Branches.

Seeking a 3% pay rise is not, in my view excessive. There is no provision for the setting of pay by the Government other than where people are directly employed (armed forces, civil service etc) consequently the trade union side must seek an agreement since there will be no offer from the Employers’ side. Of course we can anticipate an initial rejection from the Employers who will have in mind the 1% average intended by Government for its directly employer staff.

Hard times exist and any rise will be difficult to negotiate but the principles of free collective bargaining form part of our contracts and should be used to maintain an effective police service offering quality employment to motivated public servants.
Glyn Boyington

User avatar
Catweazle
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Londinium SPQR

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196318Post Catweazle
Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:56 pm

Thanks, Minx- good to see that some on here live in the real world rather than a utopianistic one :slsm:

Big Brother- I think you're being a bit too negative here. But I agree with you about those being out of work should never be better off than those in work. That's why I think this new benefit shake-up will help to reduce this problem. If only the government had started this 20 years ago... but better late than never.

Arthur- No, I didn't swallow a Daily Mail- but the paper is indeed an excellent read (you should try it sometime)- and the Mail is a refreshing change to liberal-socialist propaganda so over-represented in today's media. Er... no, I won't sing along to that (outdated, utopianistic and delusional Marxist) song- and I'll never support the red flag. We'll keep the Union Jack flying here.. Rule Britannia :sljo:

By the way, Marxists traditionally strive for global socialism- in other words, everyone (all over the world) should be equal- their slogan of "Workers of the World, unite!" is a bit of a giveaway. That means a North Korean 'comrade' soldier should earn the same as a British PCSO, a factory worker in China, a bus driver in Delhi or a road sweeper in Burkino Faso. Consequentially, this 'equality' (if taken at its word) will result in a dramatic wage cut for those in the developed world in order to achieve global equality. So, no wage increases if you're a true Leftie- more like a wage cut of about 80 per cent of what us PCSOs earn today. That would be socialist realism. Somehow, I doubt that many on here would welcome a socialist equality 'paradise'. I rest my case.

GlynB- I think you mean well... but unfortunately, the current climate is just not the best time to ask for more money. Many people who try hard to find work, and send out dozens of CVs per month to which they don't even get replies, would probably tell us that we should be glad to have a job. Unfortunately, the current system of continuous mass immigration will put increasing strain on the overstreched job market- most migrants who come here will work for lower wages, and we can't compete with that.
I may not agree with what you have to say- but I'll defend to the death (well, almost) your right to say it.

May the Reasonable Force be with you !

GlynB
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:24 am
Location: South Yorshire Police

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196325Post GlynB
Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:07 pm

Catweazle

Many thanks for complimenting me for “meaning well”.

The majority of my post is a statement of fact relating to how the contract of employment is formed and maintained.
In respect of the timing of a pay claim, there is never a good time, especially from an employers’ perspective. However, within most of the police service (those forces in who are members of the PSC) there is a process for seeking to negotiate both pay and conditions.

The employers’ side, at the behest of Government, have brought a number of the Winsor recommendations to the table and seek to negotiate an agreement. Most, if not all of these are unacceptable in their current form, but this has not prevented the Employers seeking an agreement. This does not differ from the trade union side seeking an improvement in pay.

As I indicate above the power lies with the employers, especially in hard times. This does not stop the process of reasoned negotiation. For example there was no legal compulsion on the PSC Employers to increase pay by £250 per annum for those earning less than £21,000 (FT basic). However, agreement was reached despite several powerful ACPO voices feeling there was no need. Many Local Authorities and Health Trusts did not honour the Government pledge on this matter and without a process of claim and negotiation via PSC neither would many of the Police Forces in England & Wales

Of course the original post indicates that UNISON was consulting Branches about the claim rather than lodging it without support. UNISON Members can make it clear to their Branches that they do not want a claim to be lodged. Not the view I get from the Members of my Branch but, of course, they may not be typical of the rest of the service.

I have spent over 27 years as a police employee and throughout that time I can never remember when it was the right time to seek a pay rise.
Glyn Boyington

katie c
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:35 pm

Re: Unison Pay Rise Consultation

Post: # 196332Post katie c
Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:21 am

As fascinating as this debate is, if unison get us a 3% pay rise I will personally bare my arse in Trafalger Square. They are beyond hopeless and have about as much bite as a 25 year old poodle.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic