PCSO's need more PPE !!

PCSO stuff ONLY: Burning issues, high profile questions or cases that have been highlighted in national or local news, let's talk about them IN HERE! A link to the item would be great where possible.

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bluecopper
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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by bluecopper » Fri May 24, 2013 1:35 pm

Kingsg wrote:
bluecopper wrote:One of my team mates got a right hook straight in the eye a couple of weeks ago. I have been headbutted recently. I would run out of fingers trying to count all the times I have needed handcuffs!!
Maybe you should have been observing your reactionary gap and visual warning signals before getting so close ! just out of interest how would the handcuffs have stopped you getting headbutted?
"my reationary gap", that's a new one!!! They wouldn't have helped in this scenario as the mofo was already in cuffs. We were waiting for a van to transport him. It was as we were about to move him to the van that he lurched forward. I shall be in Crown Court next month and look forward to it!!

I was merely stating that I have been assaulted, my colleague was punched in the eye and almost had a detached retina a few weeks ago. We get theatened and assaulted but the powers that be still say we are "non confrontational" I just want the equipment to do my job properly, is that really too much to ask?

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri May 24, 2013 3:43 pm

So you got assaulted despite the fact cuffs were used?

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by bluecopper » Sat May 25, 2013 9:53 am

Bert Moffat wrote:So you got assaulted despite the fact cuffs were used?
Yes

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by Kingsg » Sat May 25, 2013 10:14 am

bluecopper wrote:
Kingsg wrote:
bluecopper wrote:One of my team mates got a right hook straight in the eye a couple of weeks ago. I have been headbutted recently. I would run out of fingers trying to count all the times I have needed handcuffs!!
Maybe you should have been observing your reactionary gap and visual warning signals before getting so close ! just out of interest how would the handcuffs have stopped you getting headbutted?
"my reationary gap", that's a new one!!! They wouldn't have helped in this scenario as the mofo was already in cuffs. We were waiting for a van to transport him. It was as we were about to move him to the van that he lurched forward. I shall be in Crown Court next month and look forward to it!!

I was merely stating that I have been assaulted, my colleague was punched in the eye and almost had a detached retina a few weeks ago. We get theatened and assaulted but the powers that be still say we are "non confrontational" I just want the equipment to do my job properly, is that really too much to ask?
Not really a new one i'm afraid it should be part of your standard UDT training and is a very basic principle, It is slightly more concerning that the individual already in cuffs was able to head butt you. I would concern yourself more with observing the training you have already received before requesting further "Kit". As a side note if you get your wish for more kit are you prepared for all the associated paperwork that will come with it?

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by ninjamonk » Sat May 25, 2013 10:31 am

Why does everyone bang on about paper work its not hard to do i used to build all types of files for the courts its just part and parcel of the job, overall you need a audit trail in what you do and have to back up your actions and prove the offence, there is far worst jobs out there believe me, i have done them, it may be boring and annoying but hey! you wont be stuck in the office forever.then you are back out again.

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by xbob89 » Sat May 25, 2013 3:06 pm

bluecopper wrote:
Bert Moffat wrote:So you got assaulted despite the fact cuffs were used?
Yes

S in actual fact PPE WAS used but was of no use whatsoever.

There is nothing new in reactionary gap. The idea has been used for years. Its a dynamic process.....

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by bluecopper » Sat May 25, 2013 10:17 pm

xbob89 wrote:
bluecopper wrote:
Bert Moffat wrote:So you got assaulted despite the fact cuffs were used?
Yes

S in actual fact PPE WAS used but was of no use whatsoever.

There is nothing new in reactionary gap. The idea has been used for years. Its a dynamic process.....
I know it's not new, I was being facetious. It's just the term that was different to anything I've heard before. There was myself, 2 other PCSOs and 2 PCSO in close proximity, he was handcuffed to the front (I would have done it to the rear personally). He took an instant dislike to me, as I was the one who originally stopped him because he was refusing to stop for a colleague. He called me a few names, generally abused me and I just stood and took it, knowing that it all added to his charge sheet. As I didn't react, I guess he decided to have one final pop. As he was about to be led to the waiting van, he lurched his body forward. Luckily I saw it coming and managed to lean back from most of it. He was then taken to the floor by myself and another PCSO, restrained by 3 of us, where we had to use knee strikes as he was still fighting us. Cuffs were removed and placed at the back all while he was still fighting to get back up. He was led to the van head down by his knees!!

Oh yes, to answer the other question yes, if there's more paperwork I'll do it, I'm not afraid of paperwork!!!

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by xbob89 » Tue May 28, 2013 10:36 pm

There is nothing new in reactionary gap. The idea has been used for years. Its a dynamic process.....[/quote]I know it's not new, I was being facetious. It's just the term that was different to anything I've heard before. There was myself, 2 other PCSOs and 2 PCSO in close proximity, he was handcuffed to the front (I would have done it to the rear personally). He took an instant dislike to me, as I was the one who originally stopped him because he was refusing to stop for a colleague. He called me a few names, generally abused me and I just stood and took it, knowing that it all added to his charge sheet. As I didn't react, I guess he decided to have one final pop. As he was about to be led to the waiting van, he lurched his body forward. Luckily I saw it coming and managed to lean back from most of it. He was then taken to the floor by myself and another PCSO, restrained by 3 of us, where we had to use knee strikes as he was still fighting us. Cuffs were removed and placed at the back all while he was still fighting to get back up. He was led to the van head down by his knees!!

Oh yes, to answer the other question yes, if there's more paperwork I'll do it, I'm not afraid of paperwork!!![/quote]

Just a question.....
where were the plods? You mention lots of PCSOs and that you stopped this bloke for refusing to stop for a colleague but how did you do this? Physically?

Insofar as " He called me a few names, generally abused me and I just stood and took it, knowing that it all added to his charge sheet"...not sure calling PCSOs or PCs names actually carries any penalties......

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by bluecopper » Thu May 30, 2013 9:52 am

Actually Bob, as a PCSO we are allowed to be victims of Section 5 or 4 or 4A and as much as I don't like to be the "victim" of course you always get asked "did you feel alarmed, harrassed or distressed". Can we really say yes to that?

Yes, I stopped him physically. The colleague who had initially tried to stop the pair of them had stopped the first one, but this one didn't want to stop and he was struggling to stop both of them. I got in his way to block his path and told him he was being detained. He was drunk which didn't help. He tried to get round me, so I took hold of his arm and pushed him back. He did the usual of "don't touch me", but did stop. Several times he tried to walk off, and my physical intervention was actually quite minimal.

As for the PCs, it was a female Special of 21 years of age and about 5 foot 2 who had arrested him and cuffed him. The other's were transporting his mate back to custody, so it was for us to take him to the floor.

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by xbob89 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:48 pm

BC, you're a MET PCSO?

Do you have the power to use force to detain?

Just wondering....

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by JimmyRiddle » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:31 pm

xbob89 wrote:BC, you're a MET PCSO?
Do you have the power to use force to detain?
Just wondering....
That seems like a jibe as I don't think the Met does (not many do). But under S3CLA1967 you can use reasonable force for the 'prevention of crime'. Making off when detained is a crime for example, common assault in order to prevent your or another's lawful apprehension is also. Hell, that's even INDICTABLE so a PCSO could even citizen's arrest for it OH MY GOD...

Anyway, we've had this argument so much over the years:

1) I'm not saying full PPE would solve every problem, as it clearly doesn't. What I am saying is that it would dramatically reduce the instances of PCSOs getting out of their depth, assaulted or even threatened as people react to what they see on your belt (or lack of it).

2) Those who don't want PPE may well work in a leafy suburb where the most confrontational situation you come across is a duck with a really bad attitude, or perhaps are happy with the ridiculously small amount of work PCSOs are allowed to do?

3) Our local criminals will often kick off on our local BTP PCSOs thinking they're the same as us, but then come back with their tail between their legs after getting locked up by said PCSO.
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by JimmyRiddle » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:35 pm

Man arrested for attempted murder of on duty PCSO:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... so-3344535
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by Bert Moffat » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:10 pm

Man arrested a year ago......

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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by Arthur ASCII » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:43 am

We've had a decade of PCSOs without PPE and everything seems to have worked fine. There will always be a few "gunslingers" who yearn to be "tooled-up", but the facts simply do not support their arguements.
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Re: PCSO's need more PPE !!

Post by PI & GI » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:08 am

I have applied for btp pcso folks, can anyone who does this role let me know if the role effective is like the pre custody part of a PC's role such as detain using force,(obviously for bylaws etc withing job scope) transport to custody and put case file together as I have seen this on the job desc on btp vacancies site.


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