Un-taxed Vehicles.

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tonkertoy
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Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by tonkertoy » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:58 pm

I am beginning to think bloody hell is there anything i'm allowed to do as a PCSO !!!

Last year our force took away our ticketing power to issue £60 fines to motorist's / vehicles failing to display a valid VEL, that is PCSO's & Police Officers are not able to issue these Tickets.
Now today a colleague has told me PCSO's can no longer issue CLE 2/6's or CLE 2/8's & CLE 2/9's (Foreign Vehicles)
these are the report forms that are sent to the DVLA, for vehicles seen on the Highway with out of date VEL's and not displaying VEL's, apparently we can still use them i presume for unattended Vehicles, but we are NOT ALLOWED to issue the report / ticket if the driver is present as PCSO's are not allowed to Report the driver if he /she is present as PCSO's do not have the power to report for Offences!!

I find this odd as i'm a PCSO with Traffic Warden Power's and as i used to be employed as Police Staff Traffic Warden, i used to report motorists for several different Offences including Failing to Display, and i reported hundreds of motorists face to face for CLE type reporting, including cautioning the driver etc....

Yet another backward step for the PCSO's i believe, or is it just my Force ?? :slna: :slna:

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by averagejoe90 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:29 am

We are allowed to issue 60 pounders, for tax and other random offences as well!
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by Big Brother » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:50 am

We can seize untaxed vehicles if they're more than 2 months out of tax.

The Cle/26 isn't a report form, it's a witness statement.
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by katie c » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:45 pm

we can do CLE26/7s too, but tbh its not high up my list of priorities. I dont work for customs and excise...

Is it true if its taxed but failing to display they have a five day grace period due to people buying tax online now? or is that an urban myth?

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by averagejoe90 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:49 pm

As far as we are concerned Fail to display a current excise does not have days of grace, But having said that we don’t go slapping tickets on cars which are a day out so to speak :wink:
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:17 pm

There are certain conditions:

https://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPo ... #question9

"I have not received the tax disc. Can I use the vehicle without the tax disc displayed?

When you apply for a tax disc online or by using DVLA's phone service you are able to legally continue to drive your vehicle for up to 5 days after the tax disc has expired while you wait for the new tax disc to arrive. This will only apply when you have applied for a new tax disc before the current one expires. You should continue to display the expired disc on your vehicle, until the new one arrives[/color]"

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by Flying Warden » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:57 pm

In my experience, I could report a vehicle not displaying a valid tax disc until I'm blue in the face. Nothing will happen to the driver if the car is taxed.
I've been told it is a Police offence of failing to display.
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by Minx » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:11 pm

tonkertoy wrote:I am beginning to think bloody hell is there anything i'm allowed to do as a PCSO !!!

Last year our force took away our ticketing power to issue £60 fines to motorist's / vehicles failing to display a valid VEL, that is PCSO's & Police Officers are not able to issue these Tickets.
Now today a colleague has told me PCSO's can no longer issue CLE 2/6's or CLE 2/8's & CLE 2/9's (Foreign Vehicles)
these are the report forms that are sent to the DVLA, for vehicles seen on the Highway with out of date VEL's and not displaying VEL's, apparently we can still use them i presume for unattended Vehicles, but we are NOT ALLOWED to issue the report / ticket if the driver is present as PCSO's are not allowed to Report the driver if he /she is present as PCSO's do not have the power to report for Offences!!

I find this odd as i'm a PCSO with Traffic Warden Power's and as i used to be employed as Police Staff Traffic Warden, i used to report motorists for several different Offences including Failing to Display, and i reported hundreds of motorists face to face for CLE type reporting, including cautioning the driver etc....

Yet another backward step for the PCSO's i believe, or is it just my Force ?? :slna: :slna:
You should ask for a second opinion Tonk. Up this end, we are being encouraged to issue still. Unless its different from LPA to LPA? That would not surprise me at all.
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by tonkertoy » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:16 pm

Minx wrote:
tonkertoy wrote:I am beginning to think bloody hell is there anything i'm allowed to do as a PCSO !!!

Last year our force took away our ticketing power to issue £60 fines to motorist's / vehicles failing to display a valid VEL, that is PCSO's & Police Officers are not able to issue these Tickets.
Now today a colleague has told me PCSO's can no longer issue CLE 2/6's or CLE 2/8's & CLE 2/9's (Foreign Vehicles)
these are the report forms that are sent to the DVLA, for vehicles seen on the Highway with out of date VEL's and not displaying VEL's, apparently we can still use them i presume for unattended Vehicles, but we are NOT ALLOWED to issue the report / ticket if the driver is present as PCSO's are not allowed to Report the driver if he /she is present as PCSO's do not have the power to report for Offences!!

I find this odd as i'm a PCSO with Traffic Warden Power's and as i used to be employed as Police Staff Traffic Warden, i used to report motorists for several different Offences including Failing to Display, and i reported hundreds of motorists face to face for CLE type reporting, including cautioning the driver etc....

Yet another backward step for the PCSO's i believe, or is it just my Force ?? :slna: :slna:
You should ask for a second opinion Tonk. Up this end, we are being encouraged to issue still. Unless its different from LPA to LPA? That would not surprise me at all.
I have Emailed the Territorial Policing Inspector to ask for some clarification on this issue, he will be looking into the CLE issue with colleagues and update me asap, he did state that the FPT'ing of untaxed vehicles and the Seizure of untaxed vehicles is currently not taken up by any of the South West Police Forces, they all declined that Power from the DVLA, he did say many other Forces operate seizing and ticketing for VEL Offences.

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by Nick1973 » Thu May 08, 2014 9:07 am

My force, GMP, allows us to fill out CLE's still, although in my experience, where they used to be acted upon (I would regularly appear at a DVLA hearing at magistrates court to give evidence in support of DVLA prosecutions for not having VEL) they seem not to be these days.
GMP has dropped the offence of failing to display VEL around 15 years ago...as annoying as it can be when you see/stop and check vehicles with no or expired rent in the window, only to find it's 'on display' at home on the fridge or in the footwell, there's nothing to do about it.
In the past we could seize untaxed vehicles after 28 days, a few years ago this was extended to 2 months and 2 days after date of expiry...our seizures have fallen away in terms of regularity and sheer numbers now.
I understand that the DVLA will hold a digital record of untaxed vehicles only from Oct 2014, as motorists will no longer have to display VEL.
No doubt this will make our VEL checks quite random, or confined to motorists we are dealing with for other offences, TOR issues etc.

Usually we only issue CLEs when tax has expired from 1-2 months ago, otherwise the vehicle is just seized. Some of us issue CLEs as well as seizing vehicles, but most don't.
Most of the problems seem to arise from vehicles being SORNed these days, or drivers using tax disc fraudulently from other vehicles for theirs. Try and get a traffic bobby to come out to a 'fraud use' job if there is no driver present!

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by powdermonkey » Thu May 08, 2014 7:04 pm

I was trained to issue CLE2/6 forms but, since Pentip came in, I issue a ticket for failing to display (£100 penalty). Force policy (WYP) is to allow 15 days since the old VEL expired and I always look in the window to see if it's dropped into the footwell etc. If it's a decent car in a decent area etc, I'll PNC it and if the owner's address is within walking distance I'll pop round to give advice.
I've issued them to both attended and unattended vehicles and thinks it's a useful tool - the vehicle might also have no insurance or MOT, and you need both to be able to get a VEL.
I used to have a contact in the DVLA who, if I came across a vehicle at least 2 months out of date, would come round, clamp it, and summon a tow truck. The owner would then face quite a bill for recovery and storage. The best use of this that I saw was a local criminal, loads of previous, who used a cars sales plot to launder money. He had about a dozen cars parked on the road and all untaxed. DVLA came round early one morning and lifted the lot. Cost him a few thousand pounds. Now that's what I call disrupting criminals, hitting them in the pocket where it really hurts.
I don't think the change in the law in October is a good idea regarding disrupting criminals and getting them off the roads.
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by moi1985 » Thu May 08, 2014 7:58 pm

Powdermonkey, since December 2013 you only need an mot to get a tax disc, the requirement to have insurance was dropped. Intrigued about the issuing a fpn for no tax disc displayed, I assume this is because you have traffic warden powers, as it is not a power that can be designated to a "normal" pcso.

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by powdermonkey » Fri May 09, 2014 8:16 pm

moi1985, now I'm confused. I could have sworn that when I renewed my VEL online in Feb, the DVLA website checked & confirmed that there was both a valid MOT & insurance. I'll try & remember to check when I do the wife's VEL in August!

As for the FPN, I've been given a long list of offences I can issue tickets for, as long as they're non-endorsable. Apart from the fail to display, there's no seat belt, motorcyclist without a helmet, cyclist on a footpath, cyclist no lights & quite a few that I doubt I'll ever encounter.

The only ticket I've had refused was one where I put the wrong code for the penalty amount. If one has ever been challenged successfully, for whatever reason, I've never been told & I've had a few sgts who know full well that I'm issuing them and are supportive. I can only assume that it's covered by "discretionary powers". I've never been a Traffic Warden so I can't have inherited the powers.
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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by moi1985 » Fri May 09, 2014 11:27 pm

The only fixed penalty ticket which a pcso can currently issue is cycling on a pavement. The easy way to check is to look on your designation card, if its not listed on that the you don't have to power to do it.

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Re: Un-taxed Vehicles.

Post by powdermonkey » Fri May 16, 2014 4:43 pm

moi1985 : According to my designation card I can also give FPN's for littering, dog fouling, graffiti, obstruction, throwing fireworks and possession of Cat 4 (if I remember he category correctly) fireworks, and throwing stones at trains. I've also got Traffic Warden powers even though I've never been one.
I had a chat with a couple of sergeants and, after they spoke to my Inspector, they're happy with me doing FPN's for non-endorsable offences including no seatbelts. They even though PCSO's should be able to do some endorsables such as mobile phone, as we're likely to see such offences, and cannabis warnings. It's a big contrast with a previous sergeant, who wasn't keen on PCSO's and really only wanted us to be visible & do scene guards.
I appreciate what you've said, moi1985, and I come back to one of my constant complaints, in that whilst there is such differences in how we're deployed within a force, let alone from force to force, it's no surprise that the public don't fully understand our role, 12 years after it was introduced.
I have seen the truth and it makes no sense.

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