Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

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powdermonkey
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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by powdermonkey » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:03 pm

Jimmy Riddle,

Yep, it was a stun gun. I just use the word Taser as a generic term (as in Hoover, Biro etc). Can't even remember what make it was. As for the statement, it was essentially dictated to me by a Sgt & a PC to work around the detention & search aspects of the incident. My colleague and I discussed it and our attitude was if we get put on the spot in court we'd explain the lack of PC's available and the lack or response to the call and that we felt it was in the interest of public safety to separate a potentially lethal weapon from the male. There's been no comeback, as yet, so it looks as if the lad went guilty but I'd have to check the system to confirm that. An example of "making it fit" and "keeping the wheel on".

We've had today a glimpse of the future with few or no PCSO's - 2 plods scene guarding for 4 hours. They moaned like crazy and were not impressed when a PCSO pointed out that we do it regularly and at least the weather was mild and sunny!

Hudson's comment about the PC forgetting the caution was funny. We had a similar copper at a previous station - his nickname was The Ghurka cos they don't take prisoners either.
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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by Hudson » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:18 pm

powdermonkey wrote: Hudson's comment about the PC forgetting the caution was funny. We had a similar copper at a previous station - his nickname was The Ghurka cos they don't take prisoners either.

That is a good one, will have to use that :sltee:

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by JimmyRiddle » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:22 pm

powdermonkey wrote:Yep, it was a stun gun. I just use the word Taser as a generic term (as in Hoover, Biro etc). Can't even remember what make it was. As for the statement, it was essentially dictated to me by a Sgt & a PC to work around the detention & search aspects of the incident. My colleague and I discussed it and our attitude was if we get put on the spot in court we'd explain the lack of PC's available and the lack or response to the call and that we felt it was in the interest of public safety to separate a potentially lethal weapon from the male. There's been no comeback, as yet, so it looks as if the lad went guilty but I'd have to check the system to confirm that. An example of "making it fit" and "keeping the wheel on".
It's good that they help you to work around those points in your MG11, I guess firing a stun gun in public is ASB and then that starts to bring in our powers. Oh yeah, and the general power of seizure we now have is the exact same as a bobby's (S19 PACE) as it's under the standard powers. I do remember case law from a few years back where a D&C PCSO detained lads smoking pot on the stairs of a block of flats but said it was 'detained for purposes of drug search'. He assaulted her, got done and the appellate court said that it was lawful as the PCSO honestly believed she had the power to detain for that reason. Now common law bitchassss!

But yeah, living abroad has made me acutely aware how crap our self-defence laws are. Yeah everyone will say 'I don't want Joe Bloggs to have a blade, stun gun, pepper spray, etc' - great, so what do you do when Joe Bloggs gets one anyway as law breakers generally break the law? You being disarmed doesn't help when you get mugged. And I'll be fooked if I'm just going to do what some scumbag says and HOPE that he doesn't carry it out. I have more self-respect than that.

As for making it fit and scene guarding etc. I think the PCSO role will diminish and come back again in some form. With more and more bobbies being desk bound, not recruiting, less lucrative job as a whole they're going to start feeling it even more in coming years. We have got too used to the (unappreciated) stuff PCSOs do and someone will have the bright idea again in the future.
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by powdermonkey » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:53 pm

Jimmy Riddle

A colleague & I were talking the other day about how the force would have to cope with reduced numbers of PCSO's or even none. He and I had been sent to a scene guard at a house. It was a back to back with only one entrance/exit and we did feel that it didn't need 2 of us. We agreed that if there'd been only PC's available then only one would have been sent.

The previous night I'd copped for another scene guard at a factory. Two gated entrances at the front and an ungated path at the rear. The gated entrances were in sight of each other. 3 PCSO's sent to it. Again, our thought was that if PCSO's weren't available then it would have been one PC to cover both gates.
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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by Hudson » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:17 pm

Our force is still having a review of our role.... due in Jan i think. There have been a number of stories coming out about how volunteer PCSO's will be used by forces in the future and how ' partner agencies ' will aslo assist with the work, i see these as other volunteer or charitable teams who take welfare checks and some DV visits etc. I am stull unsure how this will go long term as the political battle is still being fought on tv and in all the local papers around the country. I agree that the bobbies will not like doing some of the necessary but nasty jobs we do and i can bet a lot will simply slip by the waste side if we all go. My colleagues and I (the sensible ones) are actively looking for other jobs, one has already got one and will be leaving at xmas, some are still confused as to why we are looking :slwot: but i guess you can't stop all the lemmings going over the cliff. Lets see what the months to come bring us, but i doubt its a lot of xmas cheer :slcup:

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by powdermonkey » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:52 pm

Hudson,

It's arrived : http://www.lincs.police.uk/Join-Us/Volu ... teer-PCSO/

A colleague told me of one volunteer, in Leicestershire I think he said, who works for the force in their property store. I'm at a loss to understand why someone would volunteer to be a PCSO. If I was going to walk the streets for no money dealing with idiots etc, I'd want to do it as a Special. At least you'd get more powers and better PPE. Leicester do seem to be recruiting Specials so it can't be a case of volunteering as a PCSO due to lack of Specials vacancies.
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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by falkor » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:51 pm

from that page
The latest course of 18 Volunteer PCSOs finished their training on 1st November 2015
18 volunteer PCSOS just finished their training? Next we need to know how many hours duty they clocked up in the following 28 days!

You or I would do 160 hours. How many will these volunteers do?

I suppose if you know the hours clocked up by the Specials in a month, these volunteer PCSOs will be similar. Actually do you ever see Specials on these Scene Guards that you do PM? where are they used in your neck of the woods? Since more than half the police stations in Surrey were closed down (and sold) it seems to me that the Specials who used to love turning up at these nicks to accompany the regulars have just "evaporated" :sloop:

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by Hudson » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:49 pm

I too can not understand why anyone would want to be a volunteer pcso, i was a special pc before joining but that has a certain kudos that a pcso simply does not have, i can honestly not see how they will get any decent numbers applying, but time will tell.

In the meantime i guess its simply a wait and see game as to how each of our individual forces reacts when the govt spending review comes out at the end of this month..... good luck all.

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by powdermonkey » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:14 pm

falkor,

It's true, I don't see as many specials as I used to and I've never seen one on a scene guard. The last time I saw any they were deployed to help patrol and enforce a dispersal area.

The problem with volunteers of any type is that they are not a reliable resource, in terms of availability (I'm not questioning ability or commitment just how many hours a week they'll be deployable and which hours).

Another possible glimpse of the future might be here : http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... ol-streets If that becomes widespread then we really are heading for a two tier police system; those that can afford it and bugger those that can't. The risks, dangers and problems inherent with what's proposed in Frinton are self evident.

Meanwhile, we've now had confirmation of our new shifts as of 15th Feb. No more working past midnight so I'll be losing about £100 from my take home pay due to the drop in shift allowance. My enthusiasm and willingness to help "keep the wheel on" have plummeted.
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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by Hudson » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:03 pm

You work past midnight ! We have never done so, we have to finish at 00.00hrs at the latest, i thought all PCSO's did this ? Agree ref the volunteers, they can not be relied upon and this was evident when a number of them did not turn up for this Sunday's rememberance services which we had to police.... the Inspector was less than impressed :slra: But that is what we have to deal with when your asking people who do not get paid to have the same dedication as those that do ! Wishful thinking.

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by JimmyRiddle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:52 am

1) Any force getting anyone to do your job paid or otherwise after you've been made redundant is totally unlawful and I'd be dancing my way to the no-win no-fee solicitor over that one.

2) As much as I love Specials (and there are some real great ones out there), how many people would want a surgeon about to operate on them to admit he's only had minimal training, voluntary and he can leave this job at any time without any comebacks?

3) And 'keeping the wheel from falling off' is what's got us in this situation. Policing is VASTLY understaffed and resourced. It has been for quite some time. So, us barely making things work, fiddling job grades, not criming most jobs which should be crimed (let's admit it - I think only around 10% of crimes called in are actually crimed), supervisors knowing that there's not enough staff out there to even keep themselves safe let alone the public but does nothing to report it up the chain of command, etc.

So we were already on our knees when the Tories decided that huge cuts will be made. And because we'd been making things work, we're screwed.

Look at Lancashire. Saying they will be non-viable and bankrupt by 2020 at this rate. Imagine a Police service just walking away from it? Can't pay the staff, having to daft in GMP, Merseyside, Cumbria, Cheshire, etc. on their days off in the interim and doing MASSIVE Specials drives. Emergency legislation passed to fully warrant G4S staff to step in to bridge the gap...
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by Hudson » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:35 pm

Agree to what you say about what incidents are given a crime number.... I know of jobs that were 100% crimes and passed the threshold but were .... not ! Often its time, the officers simply don't have it and I know that this is a self fulfilling prophecy, as less crimes being recorded mean's less officers :slwot: but what do you do when your being asked to cover 3 things at once and you know that the job your at can be '' taken '' two ways..... you go down the easy route and result it as no crime ! To be fair though the public will get the police force it voted for and for that I feel no remorse, we live in a democracy and as such we follow the ' will of the uk people '' as would be said by the SNP ! Should be very interesting times ahead I think.

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by JimmyRiddle » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:45 am

Interesting indeed. I would often see a NICHE number recorded, it'd get crimed, then later uncrimed as they'd want to justify no investigation and of course keep themselves in the green.

Think about it. No crime means fewer officers and less justification for funding, resulting in more crime as we can't keep a hold on anything and results in more stress on the officers still working there, who are more likely to not crime a job because of time and lack of resources.

See a cycle there?
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by Hudson » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:52 pm

Exactly, i see this happening now, its a vicious cycle and one the govt either does not see or chooses not to see, either way the only people to suffer are the public.

The great decision maker is cash ... and only cash, what happens to the great unwashed is something the govt will deal with at the time, at present i still see a big reduction in our numbers and a reduction i don't see us coming back from.

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Re: Hundreds of PCSOs to lose their jobs in West Mids

Post by arthurgray50@blu » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:42 pm

I feel really sad for my colleagues in the West Midlands. Yes, our jobs are safe in the London area.

BUT, I cannot see any reason why constabularies are axing Police officers or PCSO's. But sadly this is a typical Conservative Government trying to save money.

They don't care about the victims of crime, or safer neighbourhoods. Long before they Tories got into power, they stated they wanted to get rid of PCSO's who didnt have police powers, and we get ridiculed everyday. By the public who call us plastic, or hobby bobbies.

What has to happen is that ALL forces have to say we cannot cope with the cuts anymore. Get rid of Commissioner's who think they know how police forces are run and get paid £300.000 a year.

PCSO's do a fantastic job - some jobs that PCs wont do.

I wish you all well

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