PCSOs could REPLACE constables in the Met

PCSO stuff ONLY: Burning issues, high profile questions or cases that have been highlighted in national or local news, let's talk about them IN HERE! A link to the item would be great where possible.

Moderator: national-PCSOs

User avatar
falkor
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:39 am
Alignment: 'Xevious'
Location: Surrey
Contact:

PCSOs could REPLACE constables in the Met

Post by falkor » Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:57 am

Met numbers 'could be cut by half'
1 March 2004

Modernisation could lead to the number of police officers in the capital falling to just half the workforce.

The Metropolitan Police force may need fewer police officers with full powers in London and could instead recruit larger numbers of so-called police community support officers, it said.

At present, 30,000 of the Met's 42,000 workforce are fully-trained police officers.

> click here for long comprehensive report <

> click here for short and to the point report <

So - PCSOs are set to take the place of constables in the Met according to the above 2 reports, which quote a document produced by the Metropolitan Police in response to Government proposals published last year.

This issue is an extremely important matter and everybody's comments on the reports would be welcome!!

Well! What do you think? :!:

User avatar
dilly day dream
Hexblade Ranger
Hexblade Ranger
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:22 pm
Location: a world of my own...
Contact:

no coppers

Post by dilly day dream » Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:54 pm

well what an good read the longer one was.

what is the world coming to reducing the regulars :evil:

us pcso's came about because forces couldnt recruite.

Yes the pubic do want a more visable patrol on the streets but they also want a patrol that can do the job....us pcso's dont have the trainning or equipment to carry out this role.....what will they say when we stand back and watch that lady be mugged at knife point.

this may be a solution to the pension :wink:

User avatar
Jonpcso
Registered Member
Registered Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:13 pm
Location: Leeds west Yorkshire

Post by Jonpcso » Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:14 pm

:D A damn good post this one fal! i can say that in leeds town center pcso's now out number the regulars there are lots of reasons why like space ect but as emily says we can deal with only so much,However high vis patrols work so well the crime figures are well down on that of the year previous to cso's being introduced. I think that the kind of crime that we detur and stop is the kind of crime that is on the increase eg street robbery, snatches, burgelry and even street violence and as the figures show in Leeds cso's have proven there effectivness. and lets not forget the street wardens,neigbourhood wardens and the whole extended police family it all helps and if the government feel that what we are doing is effective then of course they will not employ as many regulars,Thats my view and my final words would be "IF we all work as a team and the crime rate is falling whats the problem"

ps :mrgreen: In an ideal world we could have as many regulars as we need but we don't live in an ideal world (no matter how much we've had to drink!)

User avatar
Jonpcso
Registered Member
Registered Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:13 pm
Location: Leeds west Yorkshire

Post by Jonpcso » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:25 am

:) em i do agree with you ,The fact is though that as far a town center is concerned it is a fact that figures for crime have gone down this was confirmed by the inspector,what i was trying to do is put across a posative view of cso's and the fact we are doing a good job considering the issues of training ,equipment ect and to be honest if we had as many regs as were wanted there would be no need for any of the extended police family as things are it seems we have one area that cso's are to deal with whilst our regular friends deal with the rest It all seems very political at the moment. Just to give you the picture at my end Em i work in one of the outer areas like yourself not in the town center the area i cover has every kind of area you can think of just about from a small town center to farms council estates to suburban housing and we are also Match funded the council pays for 2 cso's to patrol the town center at appropriate times. The patrols i cover a far and wide also so i kknow were your coming from there although i think that cso transport will make another good debate some areas have vehicles!! But up here not so lucky but at this moment in time I'm trying to get sorted out with 2 bukes +bike equipment as it does get stupid when you are having to wait for hours at bus stops (although technicly thats high viz i suppose) :shock: the mind boggles My last word would have to be that this very post shows how diverse the job is from force to force. :D

wozbit
Rookie Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:00 pm
Location: Kingston-Upon-Thames

Post by wozbit » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:29 pm

:?: Well i hope they dont replace Pc's with us due to lack of training as already said, but if its such a problem then the patrol should be a Pc and a PCSO. At least from a PCSO's point we will learn more this way if we want to become a regular. We are getting reports in the MET that the powers will change and kuffs and asp's are also on the cards but NO CS spray. we will all have to wait and see.

RodentNoir

Post by RodentNoir » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:15 am

wozbit wrote::?: Well i hope they dont replace Pc's with us due to lack of training as already said, but if its such a problem then the patrol should be a Pc and a PCSO. At least from a PCSO's point we will learn more this way if we want to become a regular. We are getting reports in the MET that the powers will change and kuffs and asp's are also on the cards but NO CS spray. we will all have to wait and see.
Nice to see that the two tier policing is becoming more of a reality everyday. Won't be long before some bright spark thinks about widening the powers of arrest to S25.
emily wrote: us pcso's came about because forces couldnt recruite.
Emily you mention that the police couldn't recruit regulars which is why PCSO's were created. If that's the case why do we now have more police officers than ever? I think you'll find that the reason for PCSO's is to have an officer who doesn't have as much power as a police officer so that they can be deployed to deal with incidents which do not require the full powers of a PC.

User avatar
Michael
Registered Member
Registered Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:00 am
Location: GUILDFORD, SURREY

Post by Michael » Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:53 am

I suspect that CSO's will replace many officers on street duties, over time.

As you will all know better than me, CSO's have a particular role and this is mostly community based and reassurance; dealing with nuisance crimes and improving the visible presence.

As CSO's take over these roles the regulars can then be tasked to other duties and so it may not be that they are being replaced as such, rather re-allocated.

As far as further powers being given to CSO's; well I believe that in most counties they have been given the absalute minimum to start with for political reasons. In order to perform their duties more safely I feel that CSO's will require further powers and some form of PPE and this is likely to occur over time.

Those are my thoughts....

User avatar
Eviction Technician
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:17 pm
Location: Kernow & Kent

Post by Eviction Technician » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:02 am

Once upon a time ladies and gents a person with some vision about the growing problem on the streets put forward that there should be two tiers of Policing / Police Officers.

Stage one after basic training would be a Police officer who was basically your bobby on the beat. A patrol officer interacting with the public who would do basically what we as PCSO's do but with all the rights and powers of a Police Officer. A patrol specialist.

Then once time, experience and exams were passed the patrol specialist officer could then become more with the next stage. Here he could join CID, dogs, firearms, traffic, drugs, vice etc. etc. etc. plus the ability to gain rank came here as well.

A person could stay at stage one if they wanted to or progress to stage two when they were ready.

BASICALLY UPON GETTING WIND OF THIS THE POLICE FEDERATION PUT A STOP TO IT - or cobweb covered people who didn't want and still don't want the image of the great British bobby tarnished.

Hence a new thinking process had to be thought of and eventually PCSO's were invented, or Blunkets bouncers as various Police mags use to advertise when I was a humble PC in Kent.

The Police federation also tried to stop this, but after some arse licking on both sides they failed to stop this proposal. Then PCSO's were born and other ideas of accreditied or appointed persons to carry out SOME of the role that a PC has to do these days - a good example being traffic departments being civillianised and appointed persons patrolling our motorways.

If you look at the fact that basically PCOS's basically do and have the powers of what the original Bow Street runners use to have, just look where they got today with progress. It will take time & usually something tragic to happen before major changes are under way for us as PCSO's.
The issue of handcuffs, battons, more powers etc. will arrive one day, but its a case of WHEN not IF.

The current rumour within the Met is that due to this new proposal coming out which may change Policing as a whole as we know it ( I've only read a brief amount ). Met PCSO's will have more powers, handcuffs, baton but no C.S and do basically a street duties / foot patrol role. Similar to the grade one proposal earlier but not the full entitlement. That will mean more training, probably some sort of fitness test with exams and a change of attitude needed.

It is is rumour and speculation currently, the arguement of why give us a power to detain but no restraints do show most of our powers as an absolute farce. But as I have said before there is the 'ways & means act' !!! If someone commits an arrestable offence in front of me, I'll nickem have no fear and sod this 30 minute rule. From my understanding, this 30 minutes is generally for the FPN part of our powers anyway. I had an incident with a certain arrogant PCSO who still works on the borough who after I 'detained' someone on suspicion of theft for a dodgy road tax disc, he tried to interject that he would detain the guy for 30 minutes !!!!!! Needless to say after a few quiet words to the fact he'd acted unprofessionally, was wrong and made himself look a dick he's never crossed me again !!!!

To sum up !!! As with most major public orientated services ( Health Service, Armed forces, Fire service etc. ) there are too many people who sit with fat arses on chairs, in air conditioned offices, doing nine to five, who have lost touch with reality & have no idea what goes on out in the real world. All they see & are interested in are figures and flow charts on pieces of papaer. Or too many roosters in the hen house !!!

Just bear in mind, we're a new concept dreamed up but people in offices - I mean, those blue knee length winter jackets. Who else could have. It will come one day !!!
" In the Kingdom of the Blind, the One Eyed man is King "

User avatar
Michael
Registered Member
Registered Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:00 am
Location: GUILDFORD, SURREY

Post by Michael » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:00 pm

....I see; an interesting point of view :? .

User avatar
falkor
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:39 am
Alignment: 'Xevious'
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Post by falkor » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:33 am

Eviction Technician wrote: If someone commits an arrestable offence in front of me, I'll nickem have no fear and sod this 30 minute rule. From my understanding, this 30 minutes is generally for the FPN part of our powers anyway. I had an incident with a certain arrogant PCSO who still works on the borough who after I 'detained' someone on suspicion of theft for a dodgy road tax disc, he tried to interject that he would detain the guy for 30 minutes !!!!!! Needless to say after a few quiet words to the fact he'd acted unprofessionally, was wrong and made himself look a dick he's never crossed me again !!!!
Eviction Technician - absolutely!! :ev: and you are correct on the 30 minute rule too!
4.5. The powers of PCSOs are set out in Part 1 of Schedule 4 to the PRA. A full version is at Appendix A but in summary the powers are as follows:-

1. Issue Fixed Penalty Notices (FPNs) for offences of disorder
2. Detain for up to 30 minutes suspects who fail to give details
3. Use reasonable force to detain as at 2
4. Impose requirements and dispose of alcohol consumed in designated public places
5. Enter any premises to save life and limb or prevent serious damage to property
6. Carry out PACE road checks and stop vehicles to do so
7. Stop and search vehicles & belongings in areas authorised under the Terrorism Act 2000.
8. Seize vehicles used to cause alarm etc.
9. Issue Fixed Penalty Notices for offences of cycling on footways, dog fouling, litter
10. Require name and address from suspects
11. Require name and address from person acting in anti-social manner
as you can see there, Eviction Technician was quite correct, the 30 minute rule is tied to FPN offences, for more - check the ACPO guidelines

HOWEVER just because 1 PCSO decides to use s24 PACE power of arrest (as Eviction Technician) this does not mean to say that that standard of performance is then "expected" of all PCSOs, it is not.
• PCSOs will also have a different level of duty and expectation placed on them and will be within their rights to decline to perform tasks which are outside their terms of reference or which they assess as too risky. For example, a PCSO might reasonably observe and follow a shoplifter rather than intervene and detain. Similarly, a PCSO must be more prepared to walk away from a situation than is traditionally the case with police officers.
The above is from 7.15 of the ACPO guide on PCSOs (2002)

So - I can see that different levels of performance are being achieved by PCSOs. The style of Eviction Technician is great - I certainly applaud it - but we must not forget that a lower performance (if it can be called that) IS actually quite acceptable, just read the above quote - or download the 1MB ACPO guide to see what's what :wink:

User avatar
Eviction Technician
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:17 pm
Location: Kernow & Kent

Post by Eviction Technician » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:24 am

If I may just add to what Falkor has just said by saying that I am very fortunate in the fact that I 'have been' and hopefully will soon 'again' be a Police Officer.

This, in theory anyway, means my knowledge of criminal law, Police proceedure, conflict resolution & experience has obviously put me well above what is required of a PCSO who has completed their basic training.

There are many times now & even as a PC I have thought twice, backed off, gone 'na' ( !!! ) and walked away. Ask anybody in this type of career and if their truthful will tell you the same. Phrases like 'what goes around comes around' and ' live to fight for another day' alsways come to mind.

As PCSO's we not only have the 'eyes 7 ears' clause to think of, but a legitimate tactic of 'ours' is to back off & observe until those who are equiped / experienced can deal with the situation. At the end of the day ( shift ) we all want to go home to our friends, family & loved ones.

Unfortunately for me, it's just in my nature to be a bit more 'gung ho' and I have the privilage of working with other PCSO's like this. But if I'm with a PCSO who isn't quite so then I will not put them or myself at any more risk than is necessary !!!

I'll shut up now !!! :roll:
" In the Kingdom of the Blind, the One Eyed man is King "

Gforceuk
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:24 pm
Contact:

Post by Gforceuk » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:36 am

Good post eviction.

I havent started as a pcso yet.... still waiting for a reference from an ex tw*t i used to work for..... mr anti police himself.

But i know i'll have to be restrained , after 7 years as a special doing 1200 hours a year for some of those years , i'm going to have to remember to hold back from jumping in on occasion.

and definately remember i cant arrest... lol. .

User avatar
Eviction Technician
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:17 pm
Location: Kernow & Kent

Post by Eviction Technician » Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:07 pm

:D G force, don't forget dude YOU CAN arrest though - we've already covered this point.

Just don't do what I did the first time & caution them (old habits die hard !!!). I have mentioned this before on the site but I after arresting someone would initially say something like :

" Right, I'm arresting you under suspicion of theft. So are here by detained by me until my colleagues arrive to remove you to the station ".

OR :roll:

" I'm detaining you sunshine / gents / sir / madam / etc. on suspicion of theft ".

Mind you, my absolute favourite is ,

" Alright sunshine, your nicked !!! " 8)

Then if they ask I'll tell em that I'm detaining them under suspicion of whatever !!!

Your 12 years of training in the specials will be invaluable, not only to your self but your future colleagues. Especially if you PCSO first !!!
" In the Kingdom of the Blind, the One Eyed man is King "

User avatar
Eviction Technician
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:17 pm
Location: Kernow & Kent

Post by Eviction Technician » Tue May 18, 2004 3:33 am

Okay, reading Aprils Police Federation magazine, available in all good Police stations all over the UK, there are two articles on PCSO's, or CSO's as the FED like to call us as they hate associating the word Police with our role.

There are two articles, one on page 27 entitled ' MET CHIEF CALLS FOR 50-50 POLICE SERVICE in which we get mentioned but more outlines what Sir STEVENS ( or is it STEPHENS ... can never remember - sorry boss ) has to say on his proposed reforms of the Police service.

The other is on an earlier page of number 11 entitled CONVERGENCE: A HAPPY POLICE FAMILY OR A DYSFUNCTIONAL ONE?

This article talks of PCSO expansion plans on page 13 saying that the FED agrees that there is a need for an official uniformed Police prescence patrolling the streets, making a difference to the quality of life of local citizens reducing abti social behaviour and providing visible reassurance. Quoting that is historicaly the role of a Police Officer. However they then go on to say what we as CSO's ( that's PCSO's ) cannot take, and I quote :

" Immediate action when a crime or disorderly behaviour is going on in our prescence " !??

Yeah, right ... and that's why my colleague and I had three in last week on sus. for theft of a motor vehicle and two for affray !!!

PCSO's apparently represent a radical departure from the principle that Police powers on the streets are vested in duly sworn & empowered Police officers. The FED apparently see danger that as an abscence of adequate Police powers becomes more apparent, they will be increased amd thus create what we call second tier Policing.

So does this mean that the FED is going to roll over slightly after stopping the inital Police reforms of the two tiered officer ?

If they do, we need those powers increases soon and hopefully won't be as pointless as some of the ones we have now.

There is also in this months I believe an article on the new 'civvy' motorway Police, or HIGHWAYS OFFICERS with lovely red epps on their shoulders !!! Sounds cool though once the legislation is in place !!!
" In the Kingdom of the Blind, the One Eyed man is King "

User avatar
falkor
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:39 am
Alignment: 'Xevious'
Location: Surrey
Contact:

T I Z Z Y

Post by falkor » Tue May 18, 2004 5:50 pm

Hi Eviction, yeah the Federation are spiralling into a real TIZZY about the prospect of an ever increasing establishment of PCSOs
Civilian Support Officers 'Could Spell Demise of Police Constables'

Growing use of civilian community support officers could bring about the “demise” of the police constable,it was warned today.

Chairman of the Police Federation constables’ committee, Bob Elder, said their deployment could lead to an overall fall in the number of police officers.

Use of CSOs may also mean the public is “conned” into thinking the streets were safer, he said ahead of the Police Federation annual conference in Bournemouth.

CSOs were first introduced in September 2002 after wide-ranging police reforms by Home Secretary David Blunkett.

There are now 3,500 across England and Wales.
To think I actually PHONED the Police Magazine to try and get them to give this site a bit of publicity, wow - no wonder I never had a reply back :x
Yeah, right ... and that's why my colleague and I had three in last week on sus. for theft of a motor vehicle and two for affray !!!
nice goin' Eviction, you are front line policing for sure :P

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic