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Post by **falkor** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:18 pm

Gforceuk wrote:Thats way too extreme. I've dealt with a guy as high as a kite running away from an assault , i managed to get hold of him and corner him as response arrived and the last thing on anyones mind was discipline.

you will not be sacked for making an arrest in the correct circumstances... or any for that matter.. as long as you dont assualt them or anything lol.

I agree with Gforce, but such agreement comes only with many years of police experience

a person without that large amount of "experience," is very likely not to "see" that what Gforce is saying, is in fact true - because of the theoretical situation re actual powers of arrest/ role definition

no doubt we will still be arguing this discipline v duty scenario until doomsday, it just will never be resolved

Post by **alihowe** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:24 pm

I was called to a job on the High Street, where two young females were seen by CCTV shooting members of the public with BB Guns. Found the two females fitting the description given. They would not admit to having the guns. Called a unit out as had no power of search. PC arrived and asked me to search one of female's bag as he was a male officer. I did not think this would matter as he was not searching her, just the bag. I followed his instructions only to be nagged by a female PC in my team saying I could have got into really big poop for doing that. More confusion

Post by **kentishman** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:21 pm

alihowe wrote:Called a unit out as had no power of search. PC arrived and asked me to search one of female's bag as he was a male officer. I did not think this would matter as he was not searching her, just the bag. I followed his instructions only to be nagged by a female PC in my team saying I could have got into really big poop for doing that. More confusion

Although it wasn't your fault alihowe as you were only following instructions from a PC, the female PC may have had a point.
We as PCSO's can only search bags/vehicles under s.44 of the terrorist act and that's under the supervision of a PC. Once the search is completed the person should then be given a 5090 which any officer can fill out and on that slip it should clearly state reasons for stop and search/account.
The person then should have a duplicate copy for themselves if they wish.

Once again , it's not your fault alihowe as you were following instuctions.
Ask your skipper what's the score on this particular issue cos i have to admit im not 100% sure what we can do/not do, even when a PC requests it.
All i know is that it's a tough one to call as i have asked PC's in the office and even they are not to sure.

Post by **GlynB** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:55 pm

In respect of the posting above regarding the searching of a bag and possible disciplinary action I would make the following points:

Clearly we do not have the power to search in such circumstances unless also designated as a Detention Officer or Escort Officer who has been given authority to search by the Chief Officer . This is not an option which has been made much use of.

However in the case as described one could reasonably rely on the "assisting a Constable in the execution of his/her duty" as defence.

I have little doubt that any disciplinary charge could be successfully defended in such a case provided that the action had been carried out in good faith and in the belief that the Constable was acting within his/her authority.

The female members of my team have on occasion searched people within the cell area on the instruction and under the supervision of either the arresting officer or Custody Officer.

With regard to any disciplinary action for acts outside a PCSOs formal powers:

As I have said previously on this site provided you act reasonably and lawfully you should not face any disciplinary action. Anything that is lawful for an ordinary Citizen is also lawful for a PCSO.

Having said that it is equally true that one should not face action for neglect of duty if one chooses not to act outside the formal powers of a PCSO.

If in doubt consult your union.
UNISON would be my choice.

kelly · Post by **kelly** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:28 am

I would like the power to search and the reason for this is where I am based we have youths that are harassing neighbourhoods and think they own parts of the town.

We have got one of them on a ASBO and I have to put in C22's everytime I see him as the Lead Officer for this area needs us to do this, as his ASBO states he cannot cause alarm, distress or annyoance to anyone. The officers need to have as much evidence against him to put him away.

I would like to be able to search for alcohol, also in the week youths were setting off firebombs around us, we did call for a unit but I would have liked the power have searched as could have found the guy with the equipment they were using to fire the bombs (sorry they were only plastic bottles with something inside them to make them go poof-just wanted to explain that incase you thought, bomb bombs).

Anyway 1/2 hour after and the unit got to us the kids had thrown anything they had on them away and because we did not see the actual youth that did it by the time the officer searched them anything they had was gone.

That is all I would like to search for.

But then if we had the power to search, what happens if there were no female officers and we had to go to custody to search a female as this does happen alot, we would then be off the street.

I love this role as a PCSO as we are always progressing and it is so interesting.

Post by **alihowe** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:39 pm

Yes we have been dealing with things that we probably shouldn't

. But sometimes when a PC or above has instructed you to to so, you think that it is okay as we are all still on a learning curve. We are still all quite new in our roles (from a couple of months to a couple of years experience) and when a situation is happening it's very difficult to say "No, I can't to that!"

You do what you need to do at the time, acting professional and confident.

This doesn't mean I do what I want when I want, by no means is this the case. But if I am helping a colleague and I can justify my actions then I will do it what it takes to see a job through. Right or wrong it's very difficult doing half a job. I know we have certain powers and cannot start acting like a Police Officers when we are not but if it is to protect ourselves or our colleagues then sometimes you have to act and take the rap later

Post by **kentishman** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:09 pm

It's such a tough one to call alihowe , as i said before i dont blame you for one minute as you were only following instructions from a PC.
Whist someone mentioned that we be helping an Officer in the execution of his/her duty we have to remember that if it went to court and the suspect complained of the searching technique then the court may well turn around and ask "as a PCSO in uniform on duty , what training have you had in the searching of people"? - answer: "none your honour"!
I can see the offenders solicitor going to town on this one.

Post by **alihowe** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:38 pm

You're certainly right there it is a tricky one. Problem is it's all so confusing sometimes, hopefully will become clearer the longer we do the job. Or maybe it's just me drrrrr

Thanks for your support x

Post by **Sgt87** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:08 pm

GlynB wrote:Clearly we do not have the power to search in such circumstances unless also designated as a Detention Officer or Escort Officer who has been given authority to search by the Chief Officer .

You would only get this power if a custody officer has authorised you to search a person.

Kelly wrote:I would like the power to search and the reason for this is where I am based we have youths that are harassing neighbourhoods and think they own parts of the town.

I don't see how youths harrassing neighbours will be solved by searching them? You need grounds to search and being a pain in the a$$ is not one of them.

Kelly wrote:I would like to be able to search for alcohol

I'm pretty sure that as a police officer I cannot search for alcohol. The issues with alcohol are not that serious that we need a power to search for it.

Post by **kentishman** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:24 am

alihowe wrote:You're certainly right there it is a tricky one. Problem is it's all so confusing sometimes, hopefully will become clearer the longer we do the job. Or maybe it's just me drrrrr Thanks for your support x

No alihowe you are not the only one being drrrr, i'm totally stuffed on this issue too and i believe not to many PC's know the answer either (if there is then put me and ali out of our misery pleeeease!)

The simple answer is there are no clear guidlines for PCSO's or PC's so therefore if i were you i would play it safe and only search bags/vehicles under s.44 which you can do (under supervision ofcourse!).

kelly · Post by **kelly** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:18 pm

I agree with you Kentishman

Sgt87 wrote:

I don't see how youths harrassing neighbours will be solved by searching them? You need grounds to search and being a pain in the a$$ is not one of them.

That is not what I meant, I am aware that we cannot search for alcohol and we cannot go around searching youths for no reason, don't you think I know that? ? ?

I was just saying how sometimes it would be nice as I believed on this forum we are supposed to share our views! !

Post by **kentishman** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:14 pm

Cheers Kelly!

At the end of the day just make sure you cover your own back cos if the s*it hits the fan and question marks are asked about your work then you can be pretty sure you'll be on your own.

PLAY IT SAFE!

Post by **alihowe** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:48 pm

'SURVIVOR' springs to mind - "Trust no-one!!"

kelly · Post by **kelly** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:11 pm

Just so you know, as I think you all have got the impression that I have done something I should not have done.

I have not searched anyone and if anyone ever asked me to I would say no way matey, my above comments just state how annoying it can get and that the officer serched the youth not myself.

xxxxxxxx

Post by **alihowe** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:38 pm

Well Kelly I did on the instructions from a PC when I very fist started

I'm fully aware now that we have absolutely no power of search only under the 2002 Terrorism Act in company with a PC. It's just when we were new we seemed to jump very high when told to jump

Not any more I must add.

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Powers for PCSO's to search people?