Do you do Crime Reports?

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Do you do Crime Reports? For PCSO's

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tim419
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by tim419 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:11 am

Yes, in those certain Forces that employ people specifically called "Civilian Investigator" as a job title, and individually named as having those powers by/on behalf of their CC.

But this does NOT include any PCSO.

steve999
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by steve999 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:07 pm

Police power to seize/retain/collect/pick up/take any exhibit etc comes from s19 PACE, which specifically empowers only a police officer.
I fully agree with you but you had highlighted only in bold, that was what threw me, no problem.

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Minx
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by Minx » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:49 pm

If a PCSO collects evidence, when directed and completes an MG11 and any other relevant documentation, surely it doesn't make it unlawful? A PCSO can stand up in court if required it is only that there is no precedent set to take it into law itself. Evidence is handled by civilian property stores staff as well.

Can I ask what the value in pointing out what you believe are shortcomings of the PCSO role are? I'm not being defensive, merely interested in your motivation.

:sljo:
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by steve999 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:25 pm

Minx wrote:If a PCSO collects evidence, when directed and completes an MG11 and any other relevant documentation, surely it doesn't make it unlawful? A PCSO can stand up in court if required it is only that there is no precedent set to take it into law itself. Evidence is handled by civilian property stores staff as well.

Can I ask what the value in pointing out what you believe are shortcomings of the PCSO role are? I'm not being defensive, merely interested in your motivation. :sljo:
There's a lot of good work going on around various forces for sure. In the Met, PCSOs cannot "collect" (ie. seize) CCTV, exhibits etc etc, because they have no power to do so. This is the same in all other forces.

To ensure any exhibit including CCTV remains admissible at court, we need an evidential chain of MG11s from the moment the item first comes into police possession. If the chain is broken, or we can't prove lawful possession, the item risks being excluded at court, regardless of any other factor.

Police power to seize/retain/collect/pick up/take any exhibit etc comes from s19 PACE, which specifically empowers only a police officer.

Far from just helping out to run an item from A to B, all this collecting and handling of items by PCSOs in fact risks harming potential cases, as they have no power to do so. If a PCSO therefore cannot show "lawful" possession of an exhibit, it ultimately risks exclusion at court if the matter comes to trial, just by trying to help if there was no PC to collect it back when the item needed picking up.

I don't take anything away from the great work being done by all our PCSOs, but would be interested in anyone's opinion on where your lawful power to do this comes from, as I'm suggesting under s19 PACE you don't have any to routinely do this.
Tim sums it up in his post, Lawful possession. Police officers must use a power, they can't rely on someone handing something over and that is why it is always seized. A force can't tell a PCSO to do something where they have no power to do it. I am all for PCSOs to carry out this job and the S19 PACE should be amended to include PCSOs.

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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by the dark lord » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:22 pm

Minx wrote: Can I ask what the value in pointing out what you believe are shortcomings of the PCSO role are? I'm not being defensive, merely interested in your motivation.

:sljo:
I dont belive there are any ulterior motives, just the highlighting of problems. Nothing gets fixed if you constantly sweep problems under the carpet.

I have said it before there IMHO there is not much wrong with the powers "set" that PCSOs have currently, however there are a few bits that need tweeking to make it work and come together better.

Stuff like this, the collection of CCTV from a shop that we are passing anyways etc that would make us more [cost] effective and the who police "family" more dynamic effective responsive and run smoother.

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Gualsa
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by Gualsa » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:29 pm

The other week I caught a shop lifter in the street. Detained him and marched him back to the shop, called a PC down who searched the male. Then spoke to the owner and the PC left me to it. I did a street RJ there and then, got back to the station, put the crime on the system with offender details etc, filled in relevant RJ paperwork and sent it off, noted disposal method etc.

Lastly I put the PC from earlier down as "investigating" officer as I am not allowed by the system and he got a free detection out of it for very little work on this occasion. It tied me up for 2 1/2 hrs although I didn't mind of course, its nice seeing a job through to the end :slsm:

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mj12cz
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by mj12cz » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Gualsa wrote:The other week I caught a shop lifter in the street. Detained him and marched him back to the shop, called a PC down who searched the male. Then spoke to the owner and the PC left me to it. I did a street RJ there and then, got back to the station, put the crime on the system with offender details etc, filled in relevant RJ paperwork and sent it off, noted disposal method etc.

Lastly I put the PC from earlier down as "investigating" officer as I am not allowed by the system and he got a free detection out of it for very little work on this occasion. It tied me up for 2 1/2 hrs although I didn't mind of course, its nice seeing a job through to the end :slsm:
Good job, we are using RJ a lot at work and the same as you if it applicable we can use it with out the help of a PC.

I guess this it evoulition of the PCSO role!
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by BiGjD » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:45 pm

Initially we would do crime reports for low level crimes usually criminal damage however I have crimed all sorts of things including threats to kill, theft from person, theft from motor vehicle, burglary other, public order offences amongst other things (technically this is not the norm but on each occasion I have consulted supervision who have given me the thumbs up). Generally speaking we are supposed to be limited to criminal damage though. We now also self crime rather than ringing a number to have the crime put on so we basically do the whole thing ourselves then if necessary stick an MG11 on and task it to our crime evaluators for allocation.

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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by JimmyRiddle » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:57 pm

Gualsa wrote:The other week I caught a shop lifter in the street. Detained him and marched him back to the shop, called a PC down who searched the male. Then spoke to the owner and the PC left me to it. I did a street RJ there and then, got back to the station, put the crime on the system with offender details etc, filled in relevant RJ paperwork and sent it off, noted disposal method etc.
Okay, this is a classic example of how there's more than one way of being a 'wannabe PC' or 'Policing on the cheap'. Our job is about speaking the public and gathering intel etc. NOT spending hours doing 'investigative work'! You will get no credit for it when redundancies come and your supervision is obviously happy with this bad practice going on.

Who will we get to backfill our roles if we're going to end up being desk bound like a bobby's job?

A PCSO can only witness/observe, call a patrol, use lawful detention/arrest powers if necessary, bobby attends, PCSO does MG11 and that should be the end of their input (unless it goes to court or appeal).
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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ninjamonk
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by ninjamonk » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:30 pm

I see nothing wrong with it at all, i'm happy to do more and take on more responsibility if thats the way it's going to be in the future but i guess everyone is different.

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Gualsa
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by Gualsa » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:55 pm

JimmyRiddle wrote:
Gualsa wrote:The other week I caught a shop lifter in the street. Detained him and marched him back to the shop, called a PC down who searched the male. Then spoke to the owner and the PC left me to it. I did a street RJ there and then, got back to the station, put the crime on the system with offender details etc, filled in relevant RJ paperwork and sent it off, noted disposal method etc.
Okay, this is a classic example of how there's more than one way of being a 'wannabe PC' or 'Policing on the cheap'. Our job is about speaking the public and gathering intel etc. NOT spending hours doing 'investigative work'! You will get no credit for it when redundancies come and your supervision is obviously happy with this bad practice going on.

Who will we get to backfill our roles if we're going to end up being desk bound like a bobby's job?

A PCSO can only witness/observe, call a patrol, use lawful detention/arrest powers if necessary, bobby attends, PCSO does MG11 and that should be the end of their input (unless it goes to court or appeal).
Oh yes, and get this JR: We have just been told how our performances will be measured. Being PCSOs you would think it would be via amount of hours on visible foot patrol, crime prevention surveys carried out, reassurance visits, community engagements etc etc.....No no no no- We are being measured by how often we are "first on scene" at a CAD, amount of IRs and Stop/accounts. I can see people starting to go for quantity and not quality in relation to IR (example: X was seen in Tesco buying extra soft toilet paper and 2 lemons). I can also see officers racing each other to get on scene first.
One of my colleagues was going to arrange a "keep safe" event in the park this summer for the kids but now wont bother as her performance based on above is low so she will be far too busy chasing people around for stop/accounts and IRs.

Totally whack! :slgw:

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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by JimmyRiddle » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:47 am

Gualsa wrote:Oh yes, and get this JR: We have just been told how our performances will be measured. Being PCSOs you would think it would be via amount of hours on visible foot patrol, crime prevention surveys carried out, reassurance visits, community engagements etc etc.....No no no no- We are being measured by how often we are "first on scene" at a CAD, amount of IRs and Stop/accounts. I can see people starting to go for quantity and not quality in relation to IR (example: X was seen in Tesco buying extra soft toilet paper and 2 lemons). I can also see officers racing each other to get on scene first.
One of my colleagues was going to arrange a "keep safe" event in the park this summer for the kids but now wont bother as her performance based on above is low so she will be far too busy chasing people around for stop/accounts and IRs.
Oh my word. There are only 2 forces in E/W which have HOME OFFICE performance indicators. Any other forces who use PIs for their PCSOs are misusing the role and are at risk of being formally disciplined if found out. But we all know what goes on, your manager wants to further his/her career, so they come out with a load of Police Officer type targets. Also, stop/accounts are irrelevant, as PACE1s were stopped in 2010. So are you still completing them?

Probably the most unfortunate point you have made above is the fact that a PCSO has been forced to abandon something which might benefit the community, just for some pseudo-Police Officer targets. Completely against what the job was made for and most of the public want out of it.

Funny how you're NOT A PC when you want to be, but when they want you to be one, that's just fine.

I know Police Officers on response who lock up about once every 9 months, let's just make us all PCs. The workload would be the same!

Queue xbob's speil:
Power of arrest for PCSOs for 'as and when' - s24a PACE & common law (i.e. BoP) using s3 CLA 1967

I'm a PCSO, I will WATCH you get your head kicked in (as per force policy)

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Gualsa
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by Gualsa » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:55 pm

This came from our business performance unit and was passed down to the skippers by the inspector. I already had a chat with my sergeant about it and apparently they have gone for CADs, IRs and Stop/accounts as they are measurable and foot beat is not.

We don't fill in the C3 form anymore but when we stop speak and ask for someone to account for their presence in an area we send a quick update via our airwaves with ethnicity details only. The rest is recorded in our PNB.

Basically, I am not going to chase around to meet any targets. I will continue as normal until and if I am pulled up for anything and then I will kick off! :slhi:

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anthill
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by anthill » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:42 am

Gualsa, this has not filtered thru yet to sunny KL. When did you here this?

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Gualsa
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Re: Do you do Crime Reports?

Post by Gualsa » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:09 pm

From my sergeant and he from his inspector. They may be trialling it here in SN? Its definitely coming your way. If you email me next you are at work I shall try to dig it out to forward it to you :slww:

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