Winsor Report

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steve999
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Winsor Report

Post by steve999 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:16 pm

After reading this report I did not know that there were so many rules & regulations regarding civilians pay, working conditions and holidays etc.

How will this recommendation affect PCSO:
Recommendation 3 – Police staff should not receive additional shift premium (time and
a half or double time) for weekend day working if it is part of their normal contracted
hours. The rate for routinely working a public holiday should be reduced to double
time only. This should be agreed in the Police Staff Council and incorporated into
individual contracts of employment using the established mechanisms for doing so. In
the case of police forces outside the PSC arrangements, these changes should be agreed
in the usual manner with the relevant unions.

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Bert Moffat
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Re: Winsor Report

Post by Bert Moffat » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:39 pm

I know of one Force that has already removed the weekend allowance and the shift allowance for working after 6pm, and another Force who are going through the procedures to make the same cuts at the moment.

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by tnpmonkey » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:09 am

but PCSOs dont come out of the Force budget so this will be saving them nothing.

Just think, the last 50 years of Unions fighting for benefits for everyone, all gone in a year under the tories!

You used to be a Policeman, Teacher etc because it has a good pension and benefits. Its benefits the public to have a workforce who feel valued.

Why bother serving the public anymore?

Give it two years and we will all be on a flat rate minimum wage, no shift allowance, nothing. Heaven forbid people getting paid a little extra for working after 9-5 and giving up their home life balance!

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by maximart » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:30 am

At the moment we work one weekend in three in my force & its worth about £1200 a year extra so a nice little bonus. The force wanted to put us on new rotas recently working three weekends in four but changed their minds when it was pointed out to them that doing so would cost them a fortune at a time when they are desperately trying to save millions ££££.

I said at the time that they were waiting for the Winsor report to recommend the abolition of weekend working allowance and I bet a pound to a penny if they can get away with this we will be working a horrendous shift pattern for a lot less money :x

If this happens I will definetly be looking for alternative employment (not easy I know).
In all my previous employment I have never known such a demotivated and demoralised workforce which is a shame as I used to really love my job & looked forward to going into work each day.

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by steve999 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:37 am

tnpmonkey wrote:but PCSOs dont come out of the Force budget so this will be saving them nothing.
As far as I am to believe, the government only pays 75% of the basic salary of a PCSO and the remainder is made up from the District budget. So the more the force cuts down on allowances, the more they save.

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by Arthur ASCII » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:02 am

Police staff should not receive additional shift premium (time and
a half or double time) for weekend day working if it is part of their normal contracted
hours. The rate for routinely working a public holiday should be reduced to double
time only. This should be agreed in the Police Staff Council and incorporated into
individual contracts of employment using the established mechanisms for doing so. In
the case of police forces outside the PSC arrangements, these changes should be agreed
in the usual manner with the relevant unions.
It won't affect PCSOs in the vast majority of Forces. Most don't routinely work on Bank Holidays, and our unsociable hours payments are not predicated on weekend day working. Police Officers on the other hand must be feeling rather unloved.

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Bert Moffat
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Re: Winsor Report

Post by Bert Moffat » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:24 am

tnpmonkey wrote:but PCSOs dont come out of the Force budget so this will be saving them nothing.
I am not talking about PCSOs, this affects support staff.

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by plum » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:58 am

Would you really cary out the role you do today
the U/s hours , the cold and the wet , the S**& we put up with

for £££££ less

Sorry pal
not me

it really would the very end of the line
one of the things that has kept me in the post
that I love
is the pay
If you choose to swim in the swamp with the crocodiles
You only have yourself to blame if you get bittern

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by steve999 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:05 pm

It won't affect PCSOs in the vast majority of Forces. Most don't routinely work on Bank Holidays, and our unsociable hours payments are not predicated on weekend day working. Police Officers on the other hand must be feeling rather unloved.
[/quote]

Many posts state that they receive an allowance for working on a weekend & unsocial pay if they work past
6-30pm, is this not true?
Bedfordshire Police £15,732 - £17,445 plus 14% shift
allowance and enhanced payment for
weekend and Bank Holiday Working
Cambridgeshire Constabulary £14,424 - £17,000 + weekend
allowance + anti-social hours bonus
Cheshire Constabulary £17,967 - £19,626 plus 14% shift
allowance and weekend enhancement

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by GlynB » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:14 pm

INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF POLICE OFFICERS’ AND STAFF PAY AND CONDITIONS - INITIAL STATEMENT FROM UNISON
08/03/2011

Proposals to cut members’ pay and conditions, but no job security for police staff in Government Pay Review

UNISON, the trade union for police staff in England and Wales reacted with anger to the publication today of the first report of the Independent Review of Police Officers and Staff Pay and Conditions. Whilst the report advocates protecting police officers’ immunity from redundancy, awarding them a new 10% shift allowance, a new £15 standby allowance and a new £1,200 ‘professional accreditation allowance’, police staff who make up 40% of the workforce are invited to shoulder a 2 year pay increment freeze and lose key premium payments in return for nothing definite on job security. This is happening at a time when ACPO is predicting 16,000 police staff redundancies in the next four years.

Ben Priestley, National Officer for UNISON’s 45,000 police staff members, said:
‘I am surprised by the lack of balance in the first report of the Independent Review. Our police staff members will react angrily to what is in the report. It gives us nothing to sell the suggested pay reforms to our members with. Any changes to police staff terms and conditions need to be negotiated at the Police Staff Council and only a balanced package would receive the assent of our members. This is all take and no give.’

The Report’s author Tom Winsor suggests the following cuts to police staff pay and conditions:

•A two year freeze on pay increments starting from September 2011. Tom Winsor suggests that UNISON will, ‘…recognise the opportunity to safeguard a significant number of police staff jobs by agreeing to the suspension of progression increments for the next two years.’ However, with most forces paying the 2011/12 contractual pay increments to staff in two weeks time on the 1 April, there seems to have been a misunderstanding on the part of the Review Team as to the timing of pay progression for staff.

•The introduction of a performance related pay scheme for the future award of increments
•The abolition of the weekend working allowance
•The reduction of Sunday overtime working allowance from double time to time and a half
• The reduction of standby allowance from £28.26 to £15

UNISON had expected some changes to police staff pay to be recommended by the Review, but with officers appearing to gain from additional allowances, not offered to staff, police staff will feel angry at the apparent unfairness of the package. The proposals do nothing to change the reality that police staff will continue to bear the brunt of wholesale cuts to police budgets by losing their jobs. Whilst officers will continue to enjoy a no-compulsory redundancy deal, our members are asked to sacrifice key terms and conditions in return for a very vague promise that this might save some jobs sometime in the future. That’s not the basis for a deal.

My comment

Quite clearly if the proposals on weekend payments in respect of Police staff (that includes PCSOs) go ahead, most shift workers will see a reduction in their pay. None shift workers will probably find that they are being pushed into working Saturdays and Sundays because there will be no additional cost to forces. There are also implications since weekend pay forms a "guaranteed payment" and as such is pensionable-not a welcome thought when our pensions are already under threat. I also anticipate that there will be an attempt to remove short notice shift change/rerostered rest day payments as this is a proposal for Police officers.
Glyn Boyington

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by steve999 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:36 pm

Glyn

The full report states that the 10% shift allowance, paid by the hour (8pm - 6am) is to bring police officers in line with civilian staff (in 1977 officers were given a 9% unsocial allowance, which was consolidated into the wage structure in 1979 and since that date the unsocial allowance has never been increased or index linked to present day, hence why the 10% proposal). I believe civilian staff get a percentage of salary for unsocial pay.

The standby allowance will be for gaffers, and PC on the ground will never receive this.

The £1,200 ‘professional accreditation allowance’ is a new name for SPPs, so nothing new here but a reduction in pay 0f £200.

The weekend allowance is outdated and needs to be reformed Winsor states. Asda, Sainsburys etc do not pay staff double time for Sundays anymore, so why should the police.

Pay freeze for all. No officers gain from these proposals so no point stating they do and you forgot to say officers might be losing Competency pay £1050, increase in pension 1% over 3 years to a grand total of 14% for nothing new.
Quite clearly if the proposals on weekend payments in respect of Police staff (that includes PCSOs) go ahead, most shift workers will see a reduction in their pay.
Arthur has stated that PCSO get an % allowance and are not paid for working weekend work so these proposal with not affect them. Is that not the case?

It looks like Unison are doing what the Fed are doing and using each other for their own needs!

At least you can use the threat of strikes, officers can't.

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by GlynB » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:20 am

Police Staff Council (PSC)rate of pay for weekend working as duty time (as opposed to overtime) is plus 50%. This is paid even if one is in receipt of shift pay. I received weekend pay when a traffic warden although we not qualifying receive shift allowance. When a PCSO Supervisor I received 12.5% shift pay and weekend working pay.

All forces in England & Wales with the exception of Met, City of London, Surrey and Kent are members of PSC and should be paying the allowance.

Offering officers 10% for unsocial hours, like police staff shift and unsocial hours pay, is in my view the right thing to do. It in part compensates for the difficulties to private life by working odd hours. Currently, Police officers receive a rate based only on their rank and length of service irrespective of the hours of work. I assume that the basic rate is intended to include an element for the disruption cause by the demands of the service however currently the 8/4 Mon-Fri PC get the same as those working 24/7.

Police staff receive a rate for the job. if they are required to work shifts, unsocial hours or weekends or required to standby allowances are paid. This is transparent and equitable.

In my view SPP, bonus or performance related pay is devise and has no place in the police service for either officers or staff. Far better to pay the rate for the job and where a person is not meeting expectations deal with them rather than pay again for doing what we all should do-a good job.

I think the point being made by UNISON is that there is a lack of equity in these recommendations. Proposals remove from Police Officers a number of pay and conditions terms but do offer some alternative improved conditions. For police staff only cuts are proposed with no suggested improvements. It does not bode well for either the bargaining table, job security or any real prospect of a single service (officers & staff) approach.
Glyn Boyington

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by Bert Moffat » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:35 am

GlynB wrote:Offering officers 10% for unsocial hours, like police staff shift and unsocial hours pay, is in my view the right thing to do. It in part compensates for the difficulties to private life by working odd hours. Currently, Police officers receive a rate based only on their rank and length of service irrespective of the hours of work. I assume that the basic rate is intended to include an element for the disruption cause by the demands of the service however currently the 8/4 Mon-Fri PC get the same as those working 24/7.
Glyn, everyone who joins up as a Police Officer knows that they will be working 24 hour, unsocial hours so I do not see why we need to pay a premium over their salary. I would not thank you for Monday to Friday 8 - 4 shifts as I have a much better quality of life working and the weekends off just fly by. A Police Officer's job is varied and unpredictable and so are the hours.

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by steve999 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:43 am

GlynB

Thanks for that.

Is it 100% allowance for a Sunday?

What is the current pay bands for PCSOs in your force?

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Re: Winsor Report

Post by GlynB » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:02 am

Sunday and Saturday allowance are the same at plus 50%. So working 8 hours gets an additional 4 hours pay . This is applicable if it is duty time (part of the working week)rather than overtime.

Overtime rate ( that is where the contracted full time hours are exceeded) is time and half except on Sunday when it is double time. There is no guaranteed minimum number of hours even if working a rest day. Only actual hours worked exceeding 30 minutes are paid.

As an indication of the potential loss if weekend pay is removed I have received several emails from Detention Officers (24/7 workers)who calculate that they will loose £250 per month. Likewise call handlers and dispatchers.

With rising prices, a pay freeze (I think we have all accepted this) and the proposed increase in pension contributions ( pay more for longer to get less back), it is going to be difficult for the very many police staff who work weekends to accept this kind of cut whilst continuing to have to work the same weekends.
Glyn Boyington

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