Crime scene powers

Any other 'PCSO issues' that do not fit in to the other forums. Recruitment of PCSOs, day to day PCSO duties, questions about law, joining the regular police, becoming a special, anything else remotely PCSO orientated!!

Moderator: national-PCSOs

User avatar
PCSO Mickyboy
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 916
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: Cambs

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by PCSO Mickyboy » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:58 pm

typecastboy wrote:So as they are committing an offence, does that mean that we can detain them, with reasonable force if necessary.

I understand about the protection under law bit, but I'de still do it if necessary, wouldn't you? depending on why the cordon was there in the first place I suppose.

next you will ask if we can put them in hospital :slroll: :slwo: :slhi: :slhi:
Image
Is now a PC

User avatar
PI & GI
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: milton keynes (in the cuds)

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by PI & GI » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:23 pm

If this went to court I think that if if judge was on a good pro pcso day then we should be ok . We should be able to use sect 3CLA 1967
(AS IN STATUTUE LAW) just cause we are PCSO'S we are still 'citizen's even though I have heard the CCMT and te head shed are not happy with PCSO'S using this stuff, If I had to I would as I have the statutory right as a Citizen of England and Wales. As long as the use of force was justified in stopping someone going thorugh a cordon then it would be fine.

EXTRACT FROM SECT 3 CLA:


3. Use of force in making arrest, etc.— (1) A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.
WHO LOVES YA BABY! (KOJAK)

b3njy
Official Member
Official Member
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:25 pm

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by b3njy » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:53 pm

PI & GI wrote:If this went to court I think that if if judge was on a good pro pcso day then we should be ok . We should be able to use sect 3CLA 1967
(AS IN STATUTUE LAW) just cause we are PCSO'S we are still 'citizen's even though I have heard the CCMT and te head shed are not happy with PCSO'S using this stuff, If I had to I would as I have the statutory right as a Citizen of England and Wales. As long as the use of force was justified in stopping someone going thorugh a cordon then it would be fine.

EXTRACT FROM SECT 3 CLA:


3. Use of force in making arrest, etc.— (1) A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.
You have no power of arrest for enforcing a cordon so s.3 wouldn't cover you.

PCSO's have no power to enforce cordons. Laying hands on a person to stop them would be assault on your part.
Only legislation I can think of would be s46 Police Reform Act 2002 assaulting/obstructing acccreditted person in execution of his/her duties. Even then its questionable.

Directing vehicles away from a cordon is ok though, PCSO's have powers under s.35 and s.37 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

I'm sure any good PCSO with the ability to communicate effectively with people can use their mouth to stop people entering a cordon rather than having to lay hands on someone.

User avatar
Headset 57
Elite Legion
Elite Legion
Posts: 1817
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:29 pm

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by Headset 57 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:17 pm

You haven't got any SIMPLES...
'You can always find a Question for an Answer
But you can't always find an Answer for a Question'

User avatar
typecastboy
Gold Elite Legion
Gold Elite Legion
Posts: 1992
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:08 pm
Sacred: 'Warrior'

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by typecastboy » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:30 am

Yes I agree, most of us would be able to talk people out of it, or even blocking their path without touching them if necessary. Depending on why the Cordon was there though, I would still physically stop them if appropriate to do so.
____________________________________________
July 2008 - Passed Papersift
Oct 2008 - Day 1 AC
Nov 2008 - Passed Day 1
Nov 2008 - Day 2 Fitness/Medical - Passed
Jan 2009 - Start Training in Sidcup
Mar 2009 - On Borough

SINGLE PATROL IS THE WAY FORWARD

User avatar
Trip
Executive Officer
Executive Officer
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:50 pm
Location: The PCSO Forum, The Internet

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by Trip » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:28 pm

There is a stated case that applied to PCs under common law where a male went through a crime cordon, was arrested for obstructing a constable in his executing his duty which was intially found guitly on trial. However after appeal the conviction was quashed but was reinstated after a further appeal made by the Police was made to the queens high court (or whatever the techincal name is). The problem is the name of the case escapes me currently!!

Also, if you are talking about a cordon for say a bomb threat or the like where you are trying to stop people for their own safety, if the odd person doesn't listen and go through anyway are you really gonna be going after them? If their are more important things todo such as evacuate buildings is their a point to arguing with them?

User avatar
tim419
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:42 am

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by tim419 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:34 pm

Can I offer a few bits of info on this:-

1) aside from the (rarely used by most of us to be honest) terrorism powers, neither police officers or PCSOs have any statutory power to enforce crime scene/accident cordons.

2) however, as stated above, we (police officers and PCSOs) CAN enforce cordons under Common Law, which may include physically preventing someone trying to get past you. See pg 51 in ACPO document below:

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/ ... 202009.pdf

3) failure to adhere to police/PCSO direction not to enter cordon may well result in arrest (by a police officer only), for obstructing police under s89 Police Act or the obstruct PCSO offence, Police Reform Act. However as both these offences are Summary only, s24A Any Person powers of arrest for PCSOs or anyone else DON'T apply. As this is not a "Relevant Offence", no Detention Power is available either.

4) Use of force to secure a cordon, using s3(1) Criminal Law Act ("A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large." ) may be a valid tactical option for police officer or PCSO (but for PCSOs, ONLY with regard to "prevent crime" part). This removes issue of "assault" I'd suggest. The crime would not be crossing a cordon line, but "obstructing PC" or "Designated Person".

5) HOWEVER...PCSO deployment policy must be adhered to. Regardless of the above point, if your Force stipulates the "hand on the shoulder" as the extent of the force you can use, then unless you have someone trying to enter a burning building or some other immediate threat to life, you'd be struggling to justify any s3(1) use of force beyond your Force policy, merely to enforce a cordon.

Like people have said here, 9 times out of 10, people just accept that we have a job to do and comply. For the 1/10 morons who think otherwise, just summon a PC I'd suggest.

User avatar
PI & GI
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: milton keynes (in the cuds)

Re: Crime scene powers

Post by PI & GI » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:42 pm

THANKS FOR THAT TIM419, I THOUGHT I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE SECT 3 CRIMINAL LAW ACT. I want to find out from TVP to see the exact policy now- got me curious. lol
WHO LOVES YA BABY! (KOJAK)

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic