26 cops hurt in TOTTENHAM riots

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Arthur ASCII
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Re: Tottenham

Post by Arthur ASCII » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:21 am

Catweazle wrote:Arthur- Why don't you 'phone your local council and ask them?
Why on earth would MY local Council know what Haringey are doing with their street lighting?

As you can imagine, they're quite busy in Haringey at the moment, so I didn't think it apposite to phone THEM :slroll:

So I thought I'd ask my colleagues - we like to help and inform each other here don't we?

Perhaps you should think a little before you pounce :slcud: It just pulls the thread off track.

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Re: Tottenham

Post by Catweazle » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:52 am

Arthur- As BB says, most of the rioting happened in daylight.

Your local council might have a better insight into council matters than PCSOs. No harm in asking them, methinks.

Anyway, please feel free to enlighten us (pardon the pun) if you find out... then we could all have an answer ready for curious MOPs who might ask us about it :slcool:
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Re: Tottenham

Post by 7133 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:35 am

Granty wrote:
steve999 wrote:
plasticandproud wrote:All my PCSO colleagues who were on their 7 days shift, i.e. working Saturday were made to stay until 6am. They were supposed to finish at 10pm. Presumably they thought something might start here in my outer London borough.
I suppose they all volunteered to help out, civilians can't be made to stay on duty. What were the PCSOs going to do if a riot had started in the area?
I disagree. If the boss says you're staying, then you're staying. That's that. PCSO or PC.

On a handfull of occasions (usually high risk mispers) i've been told i'm staying back whether I like it or not to assist.
I hardly ever comment on this forum anymore because of attitudes like this. I agree that in times of crisis we will all chip in, but with this there is no function for the PCSO to carry out. PCSO's are not to be deployed in public order situations. The unions make it clear that PCSO's are not to carry out this role as do the Fed and chief officers. PCSO's can volunteer to deviate from shifts but cannot be made to without lengthy notice or/and a business plan being put in place, that is to say, a good reason. As this is not a practical use of PCSO's then there is no good reason. If police forces wish to pay PCSO's double time for this kind of work then more fool them.
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Re: Tottenham

Post by Granty » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:49 pm

I agree CSOs have no place in public order situations, but as you quoted me it appears you disagree with my point of view.

Are you telling me that if you were due to finish shift at 1700hrs and a high risk misper came in at 1645hrs and the inspector asked all dayshift and lateshift to attend the area to assist with the search you would seriously down tools and go home?

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Re: Tottenham

Post by 7133 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:31 pm

ok ..for a short time only

By the way, the only reason i'm here at all is because i receive emails from time to time from the forum and it's hard to resist a look. I do seem to recall telling a mod years ago that i would no longer be participating but i still get the stuff ..so there you go.

Hi Tottenham. It's not you i'm disagreeing with - it's Granty. My point was this - just because bobbies can be made to work at short notice at doesn't mean PCSOs can. That's fact. What you are saying about looking for a high risk misper is completely out of context. The subject here is whether PCSOs should be used in a volatile public order situation, and whether they should be working extra hours for it ..the answer is obviously 'no'. I would say that area searches are a perfect use of PCSOs and there would be very little arguement against being kept on duty. In this case however, there is.

I know from experience on here that many will jump on my back about being a unionist or whatever, but what i see on here is people who think PCSO's can be treated in the same way as PCs when it suits. If you want that then fine but i would suggest you are doing yourself short and the job will exploit naivete. I just saw a photo of a PCSO who'd been hit with a brick or similar. The question is 'will the job pay out for an injury on duty?'... Q.E.D?
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Re: Tottenham

Post by Big Brother » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:22 pm

If my mates are out there holding the line, then I'm going to help as well.

I see the ideal role for PCSOs during the above situation is for transport. Either staff, prisoners, supplies or all of the above. When I was on the other night they were crying out for prisoner transport. I don't see the harm of having a caged van with 2 PCSOs ferrying prisoners around, releasing cops to get on with it.
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Re: Tottenham

Post by plum » Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:54 pm

7133 wrote:ok ..for a short time only

By the way, the only reason i'm here at all is because i receive emails from time to time from the forum and it's hard to resist a look. I do seem to recall telling a mod years ago that i would no longer be participating but i still get the stuff ..so there you go.

Hi Tottenham. It's not you i'm disagreeing with - it's Granty. My point was this - just because bobbies can be made to work at short notice at doesn't mean PCSOs can. That's fact. What you are saying about looking for a high risk misper is completely out of context. The subject here is whether PCSOs should be used in a volatile public order situation, and whether they should be working extra hours for it ..the answer is obviously 'no'. I would say that area searches are a perfect use of PCSOs and there would be very little arguement against being kept on duty. In this case however, there is.

I know from experience on here that many will jump on my back about being a unionist or whatever, but what i see on here is people who think PCSO's can be treated in the same way as PCs when it suits. If you want that then fine but i would suggest you are doing yourself short and the job will exploit naivete. I just saw a photo of a PCSO who'd been hit with a brick or similar. The question is 'will the job pay out for an injury on duty?'... Q.E.D?
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Re: Tottenham

Post by xbob89 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:27 pm

plum wrote:
7133 wrote:ok ..for a short time only

By the way, the only reason i'm here at all is because i receive emails from time to time from the forum and it's hard to resist a look. I do seem to recall telling a mod years ago that i would no longer be participating but i still get the stuff ..so there you go.

Hi Tottenham. It's not you i'm disagreeing with - it's Granty. My point was this - just because bobbies can be made to work at short notice at doesn't mean PCSOs can. That's fact. What you are saying about looking for a high risk misper is completely out of context. The subject here is whether PCSOs should be used in a volatile public order situation, and whether they should be working extra hours for it ..the answer is obviously 'no'. I would say that area searches are a perfect use of PCSOs and there would be very little arguement against being kept on duty. In this case however, there is.

I know from experience on here that many will jump on my back about being a unionist or whatever, but what i see on here is people who think PCSO's can be treated in the same way as PCs when it suits. If you want that then fine but i would suggest you are doing yourself short and the job will exploit naivete. I just saw a photo of a PCSO who'd been hit with a brick or similar. The question is 'will the job pay out for an injury on duty?'... Q.E.D?
:slcl2: :slcl2: :slcl2: :slcl2: :slcl2: :slcl2: :slcl2:
I have to say I agree with the above.
A PCSO really has no role to perform during civil unrest situations and I cant help thinking that its not cost effective to be using them even if it is for transport.
A PCSO is driving a van with a couple of scrotes in the back, the PCSO takes a wrong turn on the way to the custody suite and is faced with an angry mob....what happens next?

Im sure a few gungho PCSOs (scaredMET, TCB, PnP) will be "up for it" but really I think its best not to be using you for such situations....

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Re: Tottenham

Post by Granty » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:21 am

7133 wrote: Hi Tottenham. It's not you i'm disagreeing with - it's Granty. My point was this - just because bobbies can be made to work at short notice at doesn't mean PCSOs can. That's fact. What you are saying about looking for a high risk misper is completely out of context. The subject here is whether PCSOs should be used in a volatile public order situation, and whether they should be working extra hours for it ..the answer is obviously 'no'. I would say that area searches are a perfect use of PCSOs and there would be very little arguement against being kept on duty. In this case however, there is.
As stated above, i agree CSOs have no place in public order situations if you go back a couple of pages you will see that my refernce to mispers is not out of context as the topic strayed towards the question of CSOs being retained on duty in general.

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Re: Tottenham

Post by Catweazle » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:32 am

As PCSOs, our role is primarily as a visibile presence, a deterrent, to reassure the public, etc.

Although we don't have the powers or the training, if we were asked to don riot gear and join our PC colleagues, I would. We are being asked to work long 12-hour shifts without breaks (ie; rest days cancelled) which is exhausting. Thankfully, no-one pays any attention to the unions or suchlike- we all chip in along with our PC colleagues- it's called teamwork.
I may not agree with what you have to say- but I'll defend to the death (well, almost) your right to say it.

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Re: Tottenham

Post by Arthur ASCII » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:45 pm

Catweazle wrote:As PCSOs, our role is primarily as a visibile presence, a deterrent, to reassure the public, etc.

Although we don't have the powers or the training, if we were asked to don riot gear and join our PC colleagues, I would. We are being asked to work long 12-hour shifts without breaks (ie; rest days cancelled) which is exhausting. Thankfully, no-one pays any attention to the unions or suchlike- we all chip in along with our PC colleagues- it's called teamwork.
This is just the sort of gung ho rubbish that gets PCSOs a bad name.

Disregarding the tedious "union thing" that you are hooked on, your comment about donning riot gear to join your PC colleagues is utterly ridiculous. Quite simply, you would be a massive liability and would endanger them - they wouldn't want you anywhere near them. I did a considerable amount of riot and demo training during my time in the Armed Forces, and have been an armed presence at a few dodgy public order problems overseas. Believe me, I wouldn't have wanted you within a mile of me. You'd just be another problem to watch out for.

The thing about teamwork is that every team member should know their strengths and weaknesses, and a good team leader will never expose individuals to situations beyond their training and ability.

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Re: Tottenham

Post by xbob89 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:57 pm

Arthur ASCII wrote:
Catweazle wrote:As PCSOs, our role is primarily as a visibile presence, a deterrent, to reassure the public, etc.

Although we don't have the powers or the training, if we were asked to don riot gear and join our PC colleagues, I would. We are being asked to work long 12-hour shifts without breaks (ie; rest days cancelled) which is exhausting. Thankfully, no-one pays any attention to the unions or suchlike- we all chip in along with our PC colleagues- it's called teamwork.
This is just the sort of gung ho rubbish that gets PCSOs a bad name.

Disregarding the tedious "union thing" that you are hooked on, your comment about donning riot gear to join your PC colleagues is utterly ridiculous. Quite simply, you would be a massive liability and would endanger them - they wouldn't want you anywhere near them. I did a considerable amount of riot and demo training during my time in the Armed Forces, and have been an armed presence at a few dodgy public order problems overseas. Believe me, I wouldn't have wanted you within a mile of me. You'd just be another problem to watch out for.

The thing about teamwork is that every team member should know their strengths and weaknesses, and a good team leader will never expose individuals to situations beyond their training and ability.
Cant argue with that.....

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Re: Tottenham

Post by Big Brother » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:58 pm

We weren't put anywhere near the trouble. We were on the inner cordons acting as spotters and picking up stragglers. I still reckon we'd have been put to better use as drivers, I appreciate the comment about getting lost and being surrounded by a gang of rioters. But then that's what the accelerator pedal's for :slzip:

I never understand why people just sit there and let people attack them, drive away people ..
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Re: Tottenham

Post by plum » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:56 pm

Catweazle wrote:As PCSOs, our role is primarily as a visibile presence, a deterrent, to reassure the public, etc.

Although we don't have the powers or the training, if we were asked to don riot gear and join our PC colleagues, I would. We are being asked to work long 12-hour shifts without breaks (ie; rest days cancelled) which is exhausting. Thankfully, no-one pays any attention to the unions or suchlike- we all chip in along with our PC colleagues- it's called teamwork.

sorry my friend I think you have lost the plot a bit on just what your job is about "if we were asked to don riot gear and join our PC colleagues, I would." and do what !!!!! wait for someone to set you alight

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Re: Tottenham

Post by Flying Warden » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:13 pm

I wouldn't, I'm not trained to do such a thing and I'm certainly not paid enough.
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